Host: Today's guest worked for 18 months to close on a business he'd set his heart on. Ben Breyer is a guy who goes all in and he was all in on that deal. But it died despite his passion and Ben was left a year and a half older, a hundred and fifty thousand dollars poorer and with a negative balance sheet. He questioned whether to go on searching or was this path of buying a business really for him? Well, being freed of that dead end deal allowed him to open his mind to other listings like Meyer Gage, a decades old super niche manufacturing business. A business that Ben was sitting in as CFO and owner of. For this interview, a few themes to listen for in our conversation. First, the postmortem on that first painful dead deal. Also using conventional debt rather than an SBA loan, and finally working with a financial backer. You'll hear us discuss this model as a little bit self funded searcher, a little bit traditional search fund. Interesting model if you can get it. Okay, Please enjoy this interview with Ben Breyer, owner of Meier Gage. Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses. My name is Will Smith. Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs and on this podcast I talk to the people who do it. Listeners of Acquiring Minds know that for almost any business you acquire, its success comes down to the people and how you develop and manage them as their new leader. Thing is, in addition to management there is also a lot of process and bureaucratic work when it comes to your new employees. Payroll, compliance, HR technology, hiring to name but a few. These processes are crucial to get right, but at the same time distract from where you want to be putting your energy in leadership. So Aspen HR is an HR firm and PEO that takes this work off your plate and handles it with the care it demands. Aspen is owned and run by Mark Sinatra, himself a successful former searcher, so Aspen's own leadership understands the HR challenges that searchers have Post acquisition. The firm is offering Acquiring Minds listeners a complimentary pre acquisition HR and PEO review for your target business. Check out aspenhr.com or contact Mark directly@markspenhr.com Ben Breyer welcome to Acquiring Minds.

Guest: Great to be here. Thanks Will.

Host: Ben, you bought a 65 year old manufacturing business, a manufacturer of gauges. I didn't know what gauges were. You had to explain it to me. We'll have you explain it to the audience here in a little bit, but it's a really neat business and well earned. Your search was long and expensive and we're going to hear the whole saga today. Start us off, Ben, please, with some background on you.

[3:24] Guest: Sure, sure appreciate the, the intro. I can't wait to jump into some of the, some of the topics there. So I grew up a finance guy, sort of true and true finance guy. Got my career sort of, you know, started at Vanguard. And I sort of grew up at Vanguard. I thought, you know, that I would, you know, be there for a long time. And I was, grew up in credit research there, picking bonds for Vanguard's bond funds. So I got exposure to investment grade corporate bonds. And over the course of my time there, I got into structured products, asset backed securities, and commercial mortgage backed securities. And so I was doing some really cool, funky analysis, looked at deals that were backed by a fleet of tugboats, for example. So we did some really cool things. And as my career there went on, I sort of got more interested in getting away from a computer. Information is for the public markets. Information is getting priced in at an increasingly rapid rate with AI. And the pace of technological advancement allows people to price in information really quickly. And so I was like, man, if I'm an analyst and I'm a research guy, where can I go to get as far away from a computer as possible? Where can I go? Where the information is dirty, not accessible, where can I go?

Host: And Ben, this means, because you're trying to, this is kind of like a. Where can you still find Alpha? Where can you still get an edge?

Guest: That's correct. I mean, yeah, that's a great. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, it's like my sort of personal search for Alpha, you know, in terms of not only just like my financial, you know, situation, but also just like my career, like, where can I go to have a career of, you know, searching for Alpha? Which is what I love.

Host: And Ben, how did you learn about search itself? Because it's, there's still usually a kind of a discovery moment that this is a thing people do, that there's SBA loans, that there's a way to do this and a path. How. What was your first exposure?

Guest: Yeah, great question, great question. So from Vanguard, I went to a small independent sponsor called Mainline Equity outside of Philadelphia where I'm from. And I got exposed to the independent sponsor model. And I like that I was working in that, learned a lot, which was, which was helped to sort of, you know, helped me sort of to develop my own perspective on the market. And at that time I was also going back to business school at nyu and one day a guy, a friend of mine said, hey, like, do you know what, like, search funds are? And I said, I have no idea, man. Like never, you know, I have no clue. And he's like, well, it's totally your thing. This is totally you. You should go to Harvard's Church Fund conference. They have it every year. You should go to it. It's in two weeks on a Sunday morning. And so I was like, great. So that just happened to be a weekend when I had class at nyu. Class ended on a. Late, on a Saturday, took the train up to Boston. The conference was on a Sunday, and so in December in Boston. So it's freezing cold Sunday morning, trying to find my way around Harvard, find the auditorium, get in there. And there was probably, I mean, that year there were probably, I don't know, 50 or 100 people there, which didn't seem like a lot because your auditorium is pretty big. And I sat in the back and I started to listen to people talk about search and SMB. And I immediately was, like, very intrigued.

[7:30] Host: And I was like, my friend was right.

Guest: He was. And I was like, oh, my God, move to the front. You know, I moved to the front, you know, took out, you know, my notebook was laser, became laser focused on this. And that was my, that was that moment where I was like, wow, like if those people can do it, like anybody can do it. Like, I, I, it never really occurred to me that anybody can do this. Like, literally anybody. You just need certain tools in your toolbox and you have to have a certain sort of risk appetite and some, you know, some, some courage. And that's the formula. And I was like, wow.

Host: And Ben, you. So on the one hand, you were looking for some differentiator for yourself in your career, some sort of alpha. But I suspect what you, what you were hearing up there on stage that day in Cambridge was not just kind of some financial argument for that. There was, there was a more, a holistic, something, something broader was resonating with you. What was it?

Guest: Yes, yes, yes, yes, definitely. So the financial piece that, I mean, like, that's just teeny small piece. It was an opportunity to sort of get the keys to the bus, I say, where you have more, more autonomy in your career and your life and you have an opportunity to get to the C suite at a relatively early age, so you take on more responsibility and you basically sort of have a chance to live and die by your sword, so to speak. You know, And I liked that. I was at a point sort of in my life where I had learned from, you know, people throughout my career. And I was like, man, kind of now I'm in business school, I'm learning new ideas and I'm, you know, interacting with my classmates. And I just was like, man, I want to go, like, you know, I want to go swing my bat. I want to go, you know, I'm going to go try this out. Great.

[9:36] Host: So you walk out of the auditorium on the Harvard yard that day feeling inspired, like, this is for you. So then what?

Guest: And so one day I'm in business school, I'm in my marketing glass, Professor Carr. So one day he brought in a guy named Steve Garrow. And Steve Garrow started to speak about his background and what he does. And it was, it was remote. So this was like during COVID you know, height of height of COVID And I'm standing there in my kitchen, you know, watching this guy talk about himself and what he's doing. And I'm like, man, if I could close my eyes and picture myself in 20 years, like, I'd be that guy. Like, I'd be, you know, that's me. You know, he's talking about, you know, being a college athlete, being an English major, you know, being a finance guy. Like, I was like all these, you know, it was all the same, you know, very similar. And so of course, you know, I like raised my hand virtually and I was like, hey, like, can I talk to you? Like I'm, you know, I'm Ben and I'd like to talk to you because what you're saying is really interesting.

Host: And Ben, what was he saying? What does Steve Garrow do?

Guest: Yeah, yeah, so he was just talking about eta, but he wasn't, he didn't use that term, but he was talking about buying businesses, running businesses, selling businesses, you know, working with, you know, family and founder owned businesses. And he, he has his hands in a lot of different things, but they were all sort of like, you know, some of it is like sort of true entrepreneurship, you know, or you know, zero in a traditional sense. Yep, zero to one. But it was also like ETA stuff. And so he was involved in a lot of different cool, weird deals like casinos in Montana and a gaming company and esports and all these weird things. I'm like, wow, he's open to these opportunities. And he talked about learning. And I think this is like a big theme in Search, in my opinion and in ETA in general is just like, you have, you have to be successful. In my opinion. You have to love learning. This is about learning. The entire process is about learning about everything. You know, you're during due diligence, you're learning about industries, you're learning about the company, you're learning about yourself. Then when you post close, you're learning about how to run the business, you're learning from the employee. So you have to love learning. And he sort of talked about that. He's like, I'm a professional, like learner. And I was like, I love learning. Like, I really love, like, you know, I love learning. And so he's like, okay, like, yeah, sure, dude. Like, you know, this million people, you know, say the same shit. Like, okay, like, whatever. And so can we like keep in touch? He's like, yeah, sure. And so like we kept in touch. And he, you know, he started off like, you know, he had a little project for me at first, you know, something basic, you know, little research project. He's like, hey, can you help me with like xyz? And I was like, sure. Like, totally. Like, yes, I will. Yes, I can help you with this. And so, you know, I did what he asked, returned the, you know, my analysis to him. He's like, okay, like, this is really good, like awesome. Like, how about this? Can you help me with this? And so like throughout, you know, over the course of probably a year and a half, yeah, about a year and a half, like he and I had, we were working together on these different projects. Random anal, you know, random analyses on all sorts of things. And so we had built up this rapport and it came down to the end of business school and I was, you know, about to, you know, graduate and stuff. And at that time I had been, you know, working at Mainline Equity while I was in school. And I was like, hey, like, I kind of want to go do my own thing. Like, would you, I want to pursue ETA like full time. I want to do like a self funded search where, you know, it gives me a lot of optionality, which is another big theme. And I was like, I, I, I want to know, will you, will you back me if I find a company? Like, will you write the equity check? And he was like, yes. And so I was like, awesome, green light. So that's sort of how we got started and that's sort of how the, how I got sort of started in search. It was just, you know, just by chance that he came to talk and it just was by chance that, you know, I had a chance to work with him before we actually started searching, which I think is really important.

[14:28] Host: And did you guys work out any kind of terms at this point? Were you thinking 10, 10, 80 kind of SBA deal or was it more of just kind of like a directionally find a good business and we'll figure it out?

Guest: Yeah, Wild West. No, nothing in writing. It's just a handshake deal. Just a handshake deal.

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[16:36] Guest: I think that that deal was dealing with me. So we looked at, you know, a lot of deals, found a precision sheet metal manufacturer in, in the northeast. And it seemed to sort of initially check off a lot of the boxes that were hard to check off, you know. You know, typically, you know, you don't, you're not going to check off a lot of the big boxes right away or at all. Right. And then you pass on the deal and you move on. But you started to peel back the layers of the onion here. And I was liking what I was seeing. You know, it was close by and you seem to sort of fit this thesis that we started to, that started to formulate as the search went on. And, and so at that point, like I had you Have a really as like a self funded searcher, you have a really important choice to make. And this, I think about this a lot like, like conventional search fund and ETA wisdom tells you, hey, you found a deal, you're doing preliminary due diligence. That's great. The odds of you closing are very small. So you want to keep, keep putting deals in the top of the funnel. You always want deals in your funnel. You want to maintain your pipeline, you want to do, you know, keep. And so that sounds great, right? Like theoretically, yes, that sounds awesome. In practice that's like for, you know, a self funded searcher or you know, without, you know, full research team, like you're not going to be able to do that. And so choice was, okay, go all in, you know, on this, this deal or sort of stick my toe in, but try to, you know. And so I was like, all right, based on my initial research so far, like, I'm all in. Like I'm closing this deal. Like I am, I'm all in. And so yeah, if I'm all in on something, it means like I'm really all in. And so what happened over the course of however many years? I guess, I guess it's probably about a year, a little over maybe it was a, I guess a year's long, like due diligence dance that we did.

[18:40] Host: Why didn't it work out and. Yeah, why didn't.

Guest: Great question. So I think we, I think initially, and this is a good lesson, I think for other people pursuing these sorts of deals. I think there's a couple of mistakes, not mistakes, but a couple of choices that, that we made and I made is, you know, my choices that probably wish I didn't do. So I think trying to buy a business and the real estate, a lot of times these baby boomers, they own the business and the real estate, very common theme. And typically they want to sell both, right? To monetize their assets to retire, move on. Trying to buy real estate and a business at the same time is really hard, really hard. Trying to buy real estate in this, that's had manufacturing activities on it for a long time in this particular state that has very tight environmental regulations and laws that took a full project in and of. It's like, that's just like a big, that's a lot to take on. So I wish that we had focused on just the business first. You know, buying a business is really hard in and of itself, right. Especially when you're dealing with a seller that super emotional, really hard to work with. Had A very rigid view of the world and the process. I wish that we had just focused on just the business first and done the real estate second. So we pursued both and we got into the environmental stuff. And in this particular state, there are these certain rules where you have to do, you know, a phase one, you know, environmental, you know, site assessment. And depending on what comes up with. On the phase one, which is basically just like a book report, you have to do a phase two, which then you start spending money, you know, drilling through concrete and setting up, you know, monitoring wells to. You get it just. And so we got caught. I got caught on. On an environmental due diligence roller coaster and racked up, you know, fees of, you know, north of a hundred grand on doing phase one, phase two, phase three. All while. All the while, like, there were, you know, there were issues with the business that I probably. That's where I sort of been spending my time, right? That's, you know, and with the seller, My relationship with the seller, which is really important, like, that sort of took a backseat to, like, these big environmental things, since those are, you know, I call those like, showstoppers or deal killers. Like, it just was too much. And the seller just. Momentum's really important in this space, obviously. And people have talked about that here before. It's very true. You got to keep up momentum to get across the finish line. And momentum just stalled out. And the due diligence process just. It took too long and we just lost momentum. And so finally it just. After racking up 150 grand of deal fees, like, it just was too expensive, like. And so.

[21:44] Host: So did you walk or did the seller walk?

Guest: Yep, the seller walked. And I'm glad he did because I, again, I was all in. I'm literally all in. I did not look at another deal during that time. All I cared about was closing this business. That's all I talked about. It's just. I was all in.

Host: And you're glad that the seller walked because you realize in retrospect, it wasn't a great business. And you honey badger that you are never would have let go.

Guest: I would have never.

Host: So you needed him to let go. I would have never.

Guest: It still is a great. I mean, it is. I do think it's a really interesting opportunity. I really do. But I am glad that. I am glad that he walked. I would not have let go as

Host: easily to crystallize, like, some of this stuff that you learned. It was. You feel like you got too fixated on things related to the real estate and the environmental tests and so on, which were really expensive. Both in. Both monetarily, but also in your attention. And so to the neglect of diligencing the business itself. Nurturing your relationship with the seller, nurturing your relationship with his deal team, that's

Guest: one of the main lessons. That's one.

Host: Give us one more.

Guest: Yeah, the other one. And I would say the. Probably the top one. Your relationship with the seller is super important. So as you know, searcher, investor, you're looking at the seller. Right. And understanding his or her capabilities. How are they involved in the business? Is this someone that is going to work with us through the diligence process? Like all, you know, you're asking yourself all these questions. You also want to put the same level of. Of scrutiny on the members of the seller's team. The accountant, the lawyer. You want to make sure that they've done deals before in this space. If they're also inexperienced in the SMB space and, you know, buying and selling, you know, small businesses, you not only will be educating the seller or trying to educate the seller, but you'll also be trying to educate the accountant and the lawyer as to, like, what the norms are in, you know, I call it SMB land. That's very expensive. You know, every time you're going back and forth, like, that's more expensive for the seller. That's more expensive, you know, for us. Because a lot of times it's, you know, lawyer to lawyer. And so you want to really pay attention to that. You want to pay attention to that, to who's on the seller's team and do they understand what is normal? That all affects momentum. Right. And cost. Because, you know, you can't run up. You have to be mindful of the seller's due diligence cost as well. Like if they start racking up a big bill and they don't really see the process going anywhere, they're going to walk and you're going to be, you know, left with dead deal fees, which can kill you. You know, they're deadly.

[24:37] Host: This whole process was what, 13 months,

Guest: about a year and a half.

Host: And is it. Was there. Was there actually a particular moment that you look back on now that you can identify and be. And. And say to. That was the moment I should have vacated this process on that deal.

Guest: Yeah. When, when the seller. And I'm a bigger guy, you know, over six feet tall, you know, former college football player. This, this seller happened to be a big, big guy. Bigger than me. Taller than me. And when he, you know, when the seller sort of gets in your face and sort of, you know, cusses you out, you know, inches away from your face, you know, just weeks before you're supposed to give that man, you know, a couple million dollars. Like, that's usually a good indicator, like, something's wrong here. Like, that's not. Like, you don't normally treat someone like that. Like, maybe should have walked there.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: But, yeah, I mean, so that, I mean, that's just not a good one. It's not normal. Right. I mean, that's. That's weird. But, yeah, I learned.

Host: Okay. All right, Ben. Well, you're 18 months in. You are 150 grand in. What. What is life looking like and feeling like now?

Guest: How.

Host: And how. Like, what are your emotions like?

Guest: Yeah.

Host: Finally having this deal kind of collapse, you being this incredibly persistent person that you are.

Guest: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'm also lucky when Steve supported me throughout the whole time, too. So he, you know, he believed in me and, like, he bet on me. And so I'm very fortunate that I even had the ability to even. And so did, like, you know, my parents and I had, you know, I had saved. I had saved up some money to fund this. So at that point, I had run out of money completely. And so I'm, you know, however old I was, you know, over 30, valedictorian of my class at NYU, you know, with no job, no money, and sitting at home, and I'm like, man, this is pretty bad. Like, this is pretty bad. I should probably turn off the heat because, like, I need to start, you know, saving money. So, like, you know, turn. Turn off the heat, you know, wear sweatshirts. Like, I'm like, man, this is pretty brutal. Like, is this, like, do I want to continue to pursue this? And if I do, how exactly am I going to do that? And so, like, when that sort of fell through, and I'm like, man, how am I going to pay back this money?

[27:10] Host: Like, how are you going to pay back money?

Guest: So you started the one, the 150 grand. Because, I mean, those, like, I mean, I ended up borrowing some of it from my parents.

Host: So you had depleted your own savings and. And borrowed money.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: So you're now in debt now I'm

Guest: levering my personal balance sheet. Yep. Yep. And so I had completely. Because it took so long, I completely ran out of savings because it's not normal for the search to take this long. Completely ran out of savings, you know, was totally all in on this business. And I'm, you know, also Very fortunate. Like, that I have the parents and family that I do, you know, incredibly, incredibly, incredibly fortunate and grateful. But I'm like, man, like, you know, my parents are retired. Like, they don't have, you know, millions of dollars, so, like, they're like, you know, they need that money. Like, you know, and so I'm like, man, like, I screwed myself. I screwed my parents. Like, this is like, totally not a good situation. And I was really depressing. I mean, I think, like, mental health. And, you know, I know that people have talked about it here, but just in this space in general. But, like, that's a real thing. Like, it's an emotional roller coaster. And yeah, you have to have a really good support team. But, yeah, I was super depressed. It's. It's. It's an emotional roller coaster. And so I ended up doing a lot of freelance work on. On Upwork and some of these other freelance sites. There's a big need out there for due diligence consultants. And so I. I turned on another revenue stream because, you know, I still have a mortgage payment to make. And I'm like, like, I don't have any money. Like, like, this is not good. But I don't want to go back to corporate America and give up on the search completely. Like, what can I sell? Like, I need to sell something to get, like, oh, I can sell, like, surfaces of my skills.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: And so I started doing that, and that was like, super lucrative. Super lucrative. And so I was like, okay, I think that I can get out of here. Like, out of this hole. Like, I, you know, I think I can get out of this hole. Which is. It was pretty depressing. I mean, being in your 30s, like, you know, it's hard to date, you know, girls don't want to date a guy who's 30 and doesn't have a job and doesn't have a shit together. Like, you know, they're. It's. You're supposed to have already had all those things together by this point, right? Like, I mean, yeah. So it's like, how do I tell that story? Like, that's a tough pitch, right? Like, no one's going to.

Host: And you're like, no, I'm buying a business. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, show me, right? Like, yeah, until you. Until you got the keys to that business, like, that's the most fanciful notion in the world. Like, who's going to believe that?

Guest: Nope. Tough to get girls in that situation. Pretty tough. Yeah, pretty tough. So I was like, okay, like I can't eat. Like. And so you have to really look at you. This is one of those moments where I'm like, man, you know, I'd go to bed, you know, cry myself to sleep every night probably for a couple of months there. And, you know, I'm like, man, is this really. What. Like, what did I get myself into? Like, what. Like, I just, you know, what did I get myself into? And is this something that I really think I can be successful? Is this something that I really think is a good investment of time, money? Like, is this really what I want to go do? And so I. I questioned myself a lot, and I was like, okay, like, let's start at the beginning. Like, why did I even get into this in the beginning? Like, let me go back and refresh my analysis. And so I read some of the first chapters in the Harvard Business Review book, and it was about sort of doing that internal assessment. And like, every time I went back to, you know, this internal assessment, like, you know, framework, I was like, man, yes, this is me. Yes, this is me. And I just check, and I'm like, all right, I'm doing this. And so, you know, throughout that whole time, when I'm focused on, you know, this particular business, my partner, Steve was talking about another business that was also in manufacturing. And his friend, his close friend was actually the. The advisor, the M and A advisor that. That the sellers had hired to sell this business. And so, you know, this, you know, our first, you know, due diligence process, like, lasted forever. But I kept hearing about this business. I can. Steve, you know, would talk about it, and I'm like, okay, Steve, like, that sounds cool, but, like, I'm trying to focus on this one right now. Like. Like, you know, I want to do close this one. And it just kept coming up. And so finally, after the first deal sort of fell through, you know, Steve brought it up again. He's like, hey, like, my friend's still trying to sell this. Like, it's been in a couple years. Like, I think they're. He's having hard. A hard time selling this business. I'm like, well, like, what is it?

[31:48] Host: What.

Guest: What do they do again? Like. And Steve was like, well, like, they manufacture something, like, with metal. And, like, I think it's used to, like, you know, these pieces are used to, like, measure things. And I'm like, okay, let's take a look. Like, let's. Let me see it. You know, after all these years of hearing this, you know, let me. Let me see. And I was like, wow. This is like the, you know, your first look at this, you're like, wow. Like, why are they having trouble selling this? Like something's. What's wrong? Like something's wrong here.

Host: What did you, what was the business and what did you. What was so clearly attractive about it?

Guest: Yeah. So the business was the one that we ended up buying, you know, Meyer Gauge, Myer Gauge Company, Meyer Gage. Yep.

Host: It is just a coincidence for the founder, Al Meyer.

Guest: Yes. Named after Al Meyer. Yep. Who founded the business. And I can talk to you about that because I think that I call him the Steve Jobs of the fixed limit gauge world. Fixed limit gauges are. I'm talking about cylindrical pin gauges specifically, you know, 2 inches long cylindrical pieces of steel that are ground down to super tight tolerances. And they're just used to not measure, but they're used to inspect holes that are machined into any and everything. And it's just used for a pass fail test. That's it. So you're not measuring anything. You're just testing whether a machined hole is. Was machined to spec. Pass fail. That's it. And so it's a super cheap way to maintain super tight quality standards.

[33:23] Host: So, Ben, you. I'm. I run a factory manufacturing something. During the manufacturing process, holes are punched or drilled into whatever material, some, let's say steel. And to make sure those holes are the right diameter.

Guest: Yep. Diameter. Yep.

Host: I take these. These I'll have like a, A box of pins of varying sizes. Just like you would have like a, you know, screwdrivers of varying. The heads of various sizes.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: These are, these are your product. And I, and I open it up in there and I pull out a cylinder of what this hole is supposed to be and I slide in. I slide in your cylinder. And if it fits snugly or as it's supposed to or doesn't fit or whatever that tells me pass. Like you said, pass fail. If the hole is correct. If the hole is correct or not. And these tolerances can be incredibly precise.

Guest: Yep. We're talking like millions of an inch.

Host: Millions of an inch.

Guest: Millions of microns. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so yeah, these, these, you know, again, we're talking about pin gauges specifically. Pin gauges are just a, one of many types of fixed limit gauges, which. That's a conversation for another day. But we're talking about just good old fashioned plain pin gauges.

Host: Okay.

Guest: And that just means there's no threads on them like a, like a screw. So these are just, you know, plain you know, plain cylindrical pieces of steel. Anytime in, you know, in manufacturing, when you're, you know, machining these holes, like, and when you are producing these parts, like, there's a tolerance limit of what, you know, what's acceptable. There's a. It's a range because it's impossible to produce identically you know, identical pieces. You know, you're never going to be able to do that. So there's a tolerance limit. And so you use. Pin gauges are typically used for what's called go no go gauging. So, like, you take, you know, your. You know, your lower limit of what's acceptable. You take the appropriate size gauge for that. You know, test that. If that, you know, the go gauge. You know, if that goes through, like, that's good. You look at the upper limit of what's acceptable. You know, take that. You pick the right size pin, test that. Okay, the pin goes through. Okay, that's good. Then you take your no go pin, and you typically want to size that just so it's like, just a little bit over the outside limits of what's acceptable. And if that can't go through, then the part is machined to spec and you're intolerance and you're good to go. So it's quick, easy, and relatively cheap compared to other methods of quality control. These are used in quality control efforts throughout the manufacturing process. I mean, typically, they're used in any industry, really. Anything that has a hole that's machined into it. So, I mean, that's auto, that's aerospace. That's literally, you know, it's.

[36:21] Host: So anybody listening to this, who knows, manufacturing would probably have heard of this. A piece like this, or if they. If they. If they have their hands on the manufacturing line.

Guest: Correct?

Host: Yeah.

Guest: Yes. And. And when I started to, you know, peel back the layers of the onion, like, when I started to talk about this with people that had experience in manufacturing, they were like, oh, yeah, I know. Meyer gauge. Like, oh, yeah. Like, And I'm like, wow. Like, that's weird. Like, how do you know that? Like, that's. But I also liked it that, like, I. You know, you walk up to somebody, you know, walking down the street, and you say, hey, do you know what, like, a pin gauge is? 9 times out of 10, they're gonna say, I have no idea what that is. Just like, I never heard of it in my life. And I liked that. Like, that's. I was like, okay, cool. Like, this is a weird. Like, this is weird. Like, and that's. I Loved it.

Host: And so Ben, so you, you like the weirdness of it? You like that it's so niche. You like that it's seemingly enduringly profitable. Anything else that you liked about it? And when you, when you saw that sim and you were like wait, why has, why is this having a hard time selling?

Guest: The first thing that I sort of think about is like industry, industry structure. Because that's what determines your success, your financial success or I should say that's what determines your, the financial characteristics of your, of your business is the industry structure. Businesses don't function by themselves. They funct within an industry. So if you don't understand the structure of that industry, like you know, if that industry isn't attractive for various reasons, like it doesn't matter how good the business is. Like I don't care if it's the best business in the world if it functions in an unattractive industry. But I'm out.

Host: What's the industry structure here and why is it so attractive?

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. So I started to dig into this more and more and like there was no 800 pound gorilla in the space. So it was, it's a oligopoly. So there's only a handful, you know, maybe five or six or seven companies in the country that make fixed limit gauges at all. And it's that can include pin gauges, that includes just ring gauges, other types of, other types of fixed limit gauging. But there's only a few players in the space and they all seem to be sort of the same sort of these family owned, family founder owned businesses been around for a long time and I learned that like it was sort of like very incestuous. Like our biggest competitors were also our customers and they were also our suppliers and we all sort of, we all sort of work together and know each other and I'm like wow, like that's really cool. Like that's like you know that you pick up your economics textbook and you read the characteristics of an oligopoly, like this checks off all these boxes and like that's attractive, right? Like you're not competing on price in an oligopoly. Like that's really cool. Like I wanted to find a business where it doesn't compete on price because you get into that situation that just not attractive. And so Meyer Gauge is currently the only company in the world that we know of that I can find that produces Class Zone and Class X full pin gauge sets. There's, you know, there are other companies in the, in the world that do produce pin gauge sets of, you know, Class zz, for example. But we are the only company in the world that does, you know, full pin gauge sets at Class C and Class X, which is really cool. And that, that. I liked that. That gives us that margin of safety where, you know, if we make a mistake and we've made a lot, things don't go our way for various reasons, it doesn't sink our ship, it doesn't sink. And that's really, really important. But, yeah, so that's sort of the space. Great.

[40:08] Host: Give us a sense of the size of the business in terms of dollars and head count.

Guest: Yep, yep. So the. In terms of, like, you know, revenue, you're. You're looking at, you know, north of, you know, 3.5 to, you know, 3.5 million to 4 million. You're in that range, you know, every year, you know, in that range headcount, I guess we have 17 total employees. A few probably, probably two or three are part time and the rest are full time. And so. And, you know, you're looking at EBITDA, adjusted EBITDA margins of, you know, you're in the mid-20s there consistently, and year after year, you see this sort of the same financial results. And that's one of the things that you look for is like, you look for stability, right? When you're like, input, leverage on the business, you're levering cash flows. Like, one of the key things, right, is you want it to be stable, right? You know, you're not looking for something that's cyclical or seasonal. Ideally, you want it to be nice and steady. And that's, you know, that's another thing that we found with this business is like, man, like, that's really, like, cool. And, you know, you talk about, you know, churn, right? You know, customer attrition, whatever. You know, there's like, none, you know, but is it.

Host: Are they recurring contracts? Because I imagine that the set of gauges is something you just buy sporadically.

Guest: Yes, great question. There are no contracts. We don't have any contracts.

Host: We.

Guest: It is the same. You know, I'm talking about the top. Probably the top 25 customers. Like, they've been the top 25 customers for, you know, decades. Decades. Like people. Yeah, we have two people in the office specifically. You know, I won't name their names, but, you know, one has been here for 19 years. One has been there for. For 20 years. They, like, they've seen these customers, they've seen the, the ownership change hands, like at our, you know, Various customers, they knew, you know, the current owner's father and now they, you know, so now they know that, you know, that person's son or daughter is, you know, now running the business.

[42:26] Host: Okay, so let's get into the weeds of the deal itself a little bit and return to your relationship with Steve. Steven supporting you, believes in you this whole time. Tell us about how you're going to structure this deal. You know, you're not, you're not a traditional searcher. You're self funded. So are you going to go after this with kind of a 10, 1080 style or 208080 SBA loan? What's, what are you envisioning and what happens?

Guest: What we went with was a conventional loan. So I had, you know, during the search process, I had developed relationship with just a few really good, you know, commercial lenders. Each has, you know, their own sort of underwriting box, right. Or lending appetite. And this deal just happened to be a really good fit for this person's underwriting box. His name is Adam Regnering, first bank of New Jersey. You know, they are, you know, first at that when we closed a couple of months ago. You know, the banking space has definitely changed since then with, you know, a lot of bank failures since then. But at that time they had, you know, an app that to grow in sort of the S and P and ETA space. And so he also trusts me, which is something I'm very grateful for. And so we structured out a conventional loan that was sort of atypical for them, which again, I appreciate the freedom and flexibility, but I won't go into the specifics, but just things that we looked at were like the amortization structure versus, you know, the terminal loan, you know, timing of payments, you know, quarterly versus monthly. And you know, these were all different levers that, you know, I nerd. I love this stuff. Right.

Host: And Ben, why didn't you go sba?

Guest: Yeah, I didn't go SBA because like I, I didn't like the, it's sort of a cookie cutter type of structure. At least I found the 7A loan, specifically I'm talking about the 504 program. I don't know a ton about, so I won't even talk about that here. But 7 loan, specifically, 10 year term. Obviously that's normal than a conventional term loan. Right. So that part was interesting. But. I didn't like the different personal guarantee stuff with that. And depending on the bank, the seller, we wanted to use the seller note and did use the seller note, the seller may have to Take a backseat on their principal and interest payments. Again, depends on the bank, but no seller's going to go for seller financing if their cash flows don't start until year five. That's a tough sell, right? So I was like, I don't even want to get into all that. I want to work with someone who I have a personal relationship with, who has freedom to structure a debt package based on what we need now, but also has the freedom to structure it, you know, change it going forward without having to, like, do a complete refi.

[45:25] Host: And that sounds good for sure, but there's got to be a catch. Why. Why don't more people that I talk to use conventional financing? I think the answer is probably that they can't. Like the sba. The SBA loan is. Makes. Makes deals like this attractive to banks in a way that maybe they wouldn't otherwise be.

Guest: There's that piece. I mean, I think. I mean, this is sort of a conceptual thing. I mean, I think it comes down to, like, something that has nothing to do with the debt at all. It has to do with the equity. You know, your equity check. I think you can. I think people sort of what's attractive about the SBA program, at least in my opinion, in this space, is like, you can, you know, you can. I won't say that this is normal, which is. I don't. It's not, but, like, it's as advertised. You know, you can get up to like, 90%, like, LTV on the, you know, and so it's like, wow, I only have to come up with 10%. And if, you know, the seller note can, you know, now it's, I only need 5% in some situations. Like, that's. That's attractive, right? Like, that's the goal with, like, these are all leverage buyouts, right? So, like, the goal is put as little equity in as you can and lever up the cash flows as much as you can and, you know, try to survive like that. That's how you maximize your. Your irr. But yeah, so I think it's the equity contribution and those requirements and obviously that, you know, the required equity check, like, size of that, you know, is dictated by, like, you know, the credit cycle and, you know, different, you know, lending appetites and st. So that's a big. I think that that's a big reason why people go that route.

Host: And, and kind of based on your relationship with Steve, you felt like you were going to be able to put more equity into this deal. I mean, via. Or I should say Steve Your investor, whatever. However, your access to capital was maybe a little bit fuller than somebody who's doing the SBA loan.

Guest: Yeah, I wasn't. And like, and this is what I'm super grateful for is like, it wasn't just, you know, the Ben Breyer show. It wasn't me doing it by myself. It was like Ben and Steve. And so, you know, Steve gave me, you know, a ton of freedom to, you know, go, run, go find a business, go, you know, anything. And you know, he and I were very much on the same page with what we were looking for. Obviously I'm not going to put us in a, you know, shitty situation, but I believe that, like, you know, based on my experience, like if you can find an attractive deal, like, and by deal I mean attractive business, attractive valuation, attractive situation from an operational perspective and a human capital perspective, like, you can find something that is attractive. Money, like, is not a problem.

Host: Right.

Guest: And so Steve, you know, was responsible for, well, I guess I call it all the junior capital. We ended up going with like a sort of a mez type of junior capital piece, but we did a term loan, I should say just. I should back up for a second. We did a term loan, we did a seller note, and then we did a mez piece as sort of our junior capital.

[48:21] Host: And Ben, for the uninitiated, what is mezzanine debt?

Guest: There's not really one definition of it other than to say it's junior debt, it's subordinate to your senior debt, your bank debt, managed term loan, if you have that, or a revolver, you have that. So it's typically your junior capital piece has some equity participation. So in exchange for being subordinated, investors are probably going to want some upside. Right. So there's a conversion piece which can come in many different forms, warrants, conversion rights, whatever. But yeah, so I would just say, if I had to define it, I would say it's a subordinated piece of capital that's kind of like debt but also has upside.

Host: And why does it make its way into some deals and not others? Is it kind of like when there's kind of a gap that needs to be filled because it's always like a smaller piece of the overall deal.

Guest: Yeah, I mean, it can be. I mean it can be sometimes, you know, I guess mes can be used as a bridge or bridge financing, you know, to, you know, sort of fill in a gap that, that needs to be filled in the cap structure.

Host: Because conventional loans are so underused in self funded search where the SBA 7 loan rules. Is there any other information that you, you want to leave the audience with about that? I mean, is this, would you say everybody should look at conventional loans and they just, they don't, don't do it enough or what? Any other takeaways or have we hit at all?

Guest: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I mean if I had to just say succinctly, I mean you want to consider all of your options and you, and again, like you will never get something that you don't ask for. So I think with conventional loans, you know, you can be creative and so but you're only going to be as creative as the, you know, your banker allows you. So having that relationship with, you know, with your lending partner is really, really important. And so, I mean, I think it definitely takes more work and you definitely have to sort of love, you know, capital structure and you know, debt modeling and all that stuff. Like, the better you are at that, the more familiar you are with that, the easier those conversations can become. But I mean, I think, you know, just from, you know, just IRR math, from an IRR math perspective, I mean the seven day loan can make sense if you're really trying to, you know, minimize your, your equity check. So I mean it's, it's, there's, you know, a lot of ways to skin the cat there. But I definitely think it's, it's, people should not just default to thinking SBA 7 a loan you want to explore because it can be, depending on the credit environment, can be flexible. You can get creative.

[51:27] Host: Ben, the $150,000 in expenses that you'd accumulated mostly attributable to your broken deal from the precision metal fabrication business. What of those $150,000?

Guest: I can say that the, those dead deal fees like we were able to sort of roll into our, you know, our deal with Meyer Gage, which happened probably about a year, a little over a year later. And so we were able to like I was able to, you know, pay back my parents and you know, make some of the people hold that money to, with, you know, with, you know, based on our agreement that I had with Steve and our lending partners and stuff, you know, based on the cash flows of Meyer Gauge, that is, you know, those were costs that were incurred as part of our search. And we did use a lot of lessons learned during that process to make our due diligence process with Merger Gauge much more efficient. And so that was just all part of like sort of our search.

Host: So. Right. So it's. So everybody is going to come to the closing table when they do find a business with some accumulated expenses related to their search.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: And, and, and that's often just kind of rolled into the transaction. Yeah. And then if there's, and then you can kind of take.

Guest: And that should be part of your LBO analysis. Right. Like that's one of the main inputs is like, you know, your transaction expenses, like what are you exactly. What's normal.

Host: But, and so in your case, yours wasn't really probably any different than most people listening other than probably being bigger. I mean probably most people don't get up to 150. They're going to have some number between 0 and 100,000 probably.

Guest: And so yeah, I mean typically, I mean depends on who you talk to but I mean any, you're typically it's somewhere between like 3 and 5% of enterprise value.

Host: So yeah, for transaction cost.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. You're probably in, you know, talking legal and accounting typically. But you're probably somewhere in there if it's just legal and accounting, you layer in environmental, that can be a whole different ballgame. But yeah, from a transaction.

Host: But that's transaction costs.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: A lot of people in this world are going to also have had a broken deal or two which will have accumulated other, other expenses that go to nothing.

Guest: Yep. And I mean you like your 150. Right? Right. And it's all sort of how you treat that with your, your investors. Right. It's really a function of how long you're in. Your sort of horizon is, I won't say investment horizon, but maybe it is investment horizon because you are investing time and money. What's your search Horizon? Is it 18 months after that we're out or is it like hey man, I'm backing you up for the long term, whatever it takes. And so that just is you got to have a good team. And I really recommend building, focusing on your team first and getting people to sort of buy into what you're looking to do over the long term. Because this is a, like this can be a marathon. It can be.

[54:41] Host: It's interesting Ben, because you were, you're kind of on paper a self funded searcher but in. Because you did self fund your search but then you ran out of money and you and Steve helped, helped you continue to search, help continue to finance research and you borrowed money from your personal friends and family.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: And so in some ways. But he's also your investor. So in some ways you know that that starts to move a little bit in the direction of like a traditional insurance fund. Where you, where you've established relationships with investors who fund your search.

Guest: Right, so. Right.

Host: So you know, and I'm not trying to be too strict on labels here, but it's a combination. Is it?

Guest: Yeah, it's a combination. I mean and the other thing is like I, during that this time I also like, I mean I discovered freelancing which I love and I think is really cool and I think more people should think about that. So I just, I started with Upwork and moved on to a couple of different other platforms. But like freelancing was definitely a big source of income and sort of helped me get through that time. And so if there are other self funded searchers out there, like there are other people who are searching for businesses and some of them go to UPWORK for help. It's a really interesting way to connect with people. And who knows, maybe people you meet on upwork can be, you know, your advisors or your investors. Like there's a lot of people on upwork, for example. That's just one of many. But like that's something to think about.

Host: Yeah, yeah. One of the things that we had talked about in our pre call Ben, is it was the, it, the, the tech debt, as they would say in Silicon Valley that you encountered when you got there and you thought that this was something that doesn't get enough attention, like it due diligence and just jumping ahead a little bit. Like I was struck that you said that because one of the kind of patterns that you hear talked about in our world is that we expect the tech stack of the business that we're acquiring to be retrograde. And that, and that's one of the opportunities is to bring tech where there isn't tech or to upgrade the tech. But your take is a little bit different. Your take is that it's really this liability that you should kind of know about in model and your LBO model I guess in, in advance. So elaborate please.

[57:02] Guest: I mean like just ETA diligence. I mean your goal, like one of the main, your main task really is, I guess you have to, is to maintain your relationship with the seller and to close.

Host: Right.

Guest: And so typically, again, I hate making broad, big, broad sweeping statements, but with, you know, typically with some of the baby boomers who own some of the businesses that we were looking at, for example, like they're not the most technically savvy people of all time. Like it just, they didn't need that to have success in the business world. There was no, like it just, you know, they didn't need to have those skills. And so when you're doing, when you're doing diligence, the understanding of what tech debt really is and how big that liability really is, it's something that probably doesn't get enough attention, most likely because if you bring it up with the seller, again, you have to think about when you bring it up in the diligence process. But most likely, I mean, again, this is just my experience. Typically they're not going to really want to talk about it that much. Right. Like, like if you're in your 30s, like, you have a very different, typically you have a very different level of comfort and sophistication than someone in their 60s with, when it comes to it and like, you know, systems. And so like, they're probably not going to want to talk about that very much because it's something they are not typically not super familiar with or they don't care about because they don't need to care about that. And so it's a fine line. You get to balance that. But like, the business or businesses run on that stuff, like businesses run on the ERP system, for example. And so it's, it's hard to, because you want to, again, maintain relationship with the seller. You don't want to piss them off, you don't want to annoy them. It's hard to. It's an area of diligence that is, I think, really, really important and should probably be talked about sort of sooner in the process than later when it comes to sort of staging your diligence process. If the company uses an ERP system, for example, you really want to dig into that and understand, okay, does this meet our needs? Because the seller's needs most likely are going to be very different from what your needs are from an IT perspective and also from a financial reporting perspective, which your financial reporting capabilities are going to be a function of your IT systems. So like, you have to think like, okay, this business works really well for the sellers. Like, you know, this setup, you know, will this work for us? And if, and if not, what's the plan for addressing that? Like, is this something that we can address before we close? Is this something that we should address post close? And if so, how long will that take? Candidly, we, like sort of. I underestimated this, how important this is. I wish I had spent more time in diligence on our accounting system, which is, you know, our ERP system. I wish I spent more time understanding that because, and sort of thinking through that, because when you close, like from Again, from a financial reporting perspective, like you're on the clock right now. You are owning and running a business. You are producing financial results that you're going to have to show to lenders and investors. Are you prepared to actually collect the information you need to produce those reports? And so that's definitely something you want to think through before closing. Because more and more as we go forward here, I believe that every business is going to be a tech business. It is going to just become more and more important. It's going to be, you know, play a bigger role in any business.

[1:00:48] Host: Yeah.

Guest: So it's something to really, really think about and understand like, you know, what changes need to be made, if any to the tech stack and when does it make sense to do that? How does it make sense, you know, to talk? How does it, you know, how do you talk about that with the seller, if at all and when. So it's, it's something that should definitely be a super high priority.

Host: One of the features of your deal, Ben, is that you were going to, you brought in a CEO as you bought the business and your actual official title, even though you were kind of the principal here, was going to be cfo. How has that gone?

Guest: Steve and I started to focus on manufacturing and obviously I've never worked a day in manufacturing in my life. Like I literally can't even turn the lights on in here. I have no experience in manufacturing. Zero. And so Steve has some. But it would be really nice we both thought to have someone that I can learn from, someone who has more experience with this, someone who could help me get the learning curve, someone who could run the operations while I worked on the finance stuff. And so we found a guy, came in part of the management team and you know, just post close we just realized just wasn't a great fit for. For a few reasons. So now currently I've taken on some of the typical CEO responsibilities and it's been interesting. It's been an interesting time. I have learned that like time allocation is critically important and when, you know, in SMB as a leader of a firm, like it's, there's only. You only have so much capacity and bandwidth and so being able to like delegate is super important. Being able to have the people who you trust to be able to delegate to is really important. But it's definitely been pretty rocky. Definitely been pretty rocky. As you know, I'm sort of learning and getting up the learning curve. But it's it this, you know, again, because things that you don't expect will Definitely happen. It, it makes it really important that you understand the resources that you have. So it obviously is one, but the more important one, and this is a great place to even talk about this is like the employees, Steve and I got so lucky with the employees that we have in this building. And I will get choked up if I talk about it too much. But we do have, we have a lady who's worked here for 33 years, a person who's worked here for 28 years, probably three or four people that have worked here for 20 years. And so just the resources that we have in the support system that I have here and them is invaluable. And we've bonded together as we sort of gone through these different experiences and it's been a really fun ride. But I would say it's also important to understand if you're thinking about buying a business, you have to think through who's going to be on my team. And so if you can. Not every business owner allows this, but if you can, spending some time in the business before the deal closes is just so important. And we're lucky, you know, Jamie and John, who we bought the business from, you know, they're Al Meier's sons. Jamie and John at that point had been, you know, had sort of danced the dance with a couple different potential buyers. And they just, candidly, they were just sort of tired of the whole process and which I can appreciate and I get. And they were just great, you know, gracious enough to allow us to sort of spend time in the business post pre close. And so we got to really understand who we had on our team. And I think that that was really important. And that sort of has helped us at least has helped me navigate some of these sort of unexpected twists and turns in the road because we have built rapport and we trust each other and it's just super important.

[1:04:58] Host: Ben, what about if you brought in you like had the management team was you, Steve, and this third person who is going to be the kind of the head of operations, the CEO of this small business and then that doesn't work out and you're left as the sole person. I mean, doesn't that that double your work? Now you are the leader of a manufacturing business and you know, you're very, very, very new to manufacturing. Are you trying to refill this now empty position or are you just going to carry on as the now sole leader on the management team?

Guest: What has happened here in the first few months is a lot of the people who have worked Here for a long time, they have stepped up and, you know, they have grown into more, you know, more management type positions. They've, you know, taken on more responsibility. They've helped advise me on different situations. And so we have, you know, three or four people in this company specifically, who have, like, really stepped up and just taken on a lot more responsibility and have helped me sort of go through, you know, this process. And I mean, it sucks. But, like, when any time with any group of people, if you face, you know, adversity or some, you know, major unexpected changes, like, you're going to find out who's on your team real quick and you're going to find out, like, who can play ball and like, who can't. Right? And. But it takes that adversity to even to be able to find that, you know, to see people's true colors and to understand, like, the true makeup of, like, your team. Like, you know, like Mike Tyson said, everybody's got a plan to get punched in the mouth. Right? Like, so when you get punched in the mouth, like, you gotta see, you know, who. Who. How are we gonna respond? How are people gonna react? What's. And it's been really cool to see how people have responded to everything. I mean, people at this company really care about this company. They're totally invested and I'm just so grateful to be a part of that team.

[1:07:08] Host: So it doesn't sound like you're racing to fill the.

Guest: Not at all. Yeah. I mean, as we grow and change and we go forward, obviously, you know, in constant change. Right. And so, like, our HR needs will change and grow as we, you know, change and, you know, as our sort of needs change. Because, I mean, we. People here have worked here for a long time, right. And so eventually, you know, they're going to. People are going to retire and we're going to have new people. Our needs will change. But I mean, right now, I love our team, man. We. We're good.

Host: Great. So you are a searcher and now owner with investors, operator of the business. And what you were really inspired by was Steve Garrow back. Going back to when you're. When you're in class remotely via Zoom, and he's speaking to the class. And it just really resonates what his career is with you. How do you like what you're doing now as an operator? Very, very. In the business versus what my impression is that Steve does, which is more he's. Like you said, he's got his hands in a lot of different things. And I assume not an operator in any, in any one thing, more of an independent sponsor. I think you, you've characterized him to me before as, so does that. How do you kind of compare and contrast the models of entrepreneurship that the two of you have chosen?

Guest: Yeah, it's, Steve has, and I should say, I mean he has operate, owned and not. He's, he has been in the operator seat before. So it's, he brings, he's just a helpful resource from that perspective as well. But obviously this, it's very different. I mean like, yes, I used to be like, you know, a guy, you know, the finance guy, right. Take your feet up on the desk, whip around Excel stuff, go home. But like, you know, and you're like, man, like this business, you know, isn't doing well or this business is doing really well. Like, I mean being the guy that's actually pulling those levers on the ground is very different. Which is the nature of your question. I love it. It's definitely been something I've grown into and have gotten better at over time. This is, I mean it's a learning experience, right? You got to love learning. But it's been totally liberating for me to be able to make decisions, have autonomy in my life and my career and to really just have the buy in from people, everybody, investors, Steve, employees. It's been awesome. But you're still learning. At the end of the day, that's what this is all about. You're learning about the people you have on your team. You're learning about different business opportunities, you're learning about the industry, you're learning, I'm learning manufacturing. You know, it's, you have to love that. So I mean, I would say it's, yes, it's very different in terms of like your responsibilities and the impact of some of the decisions that you make. But I think that if you really have an appreciation and love for just like the learning process, right. Like it's a, it's, you know, just. I love the process, man. Like, I love the deal process, I love the operating process. If you just love that and you love learning about it, like making that transition is not, you know, it's going to be a lot easier. It won't be as daunting.

[1:10:33] Host: What about the going all the way back to where you were in, in finance but thinking to yourself that any alpha was going to be kind of technology to way. And so you wanted to get away from the computer screen and, and kind of you learn about the businesses. The lower, the, the opportunities in lower middle Market, business, sales and operations, which is where we all are now. Do you feel like that thesis or hunch that you had that there, that there was alpha hiding, hiding out in this space has borne out?

Guest: I do, I do. I mean, obviously, like, you know, we haven't had a big exit or whatever and you know, the question of like, when and how you exit or if you exit at all, it's a completely separate topic. But.

Host: And sorry, Ben, when did you close? I don't think I got that.

Guest: Sorry. Apologize. February of 2023.

Host: Okay, so we're six months in. Six, seven months in.

Guest: Yep, yep, seven months in. Time flies. Yeah. I would say yes.

Host: Continue, please.

Guest: I mean, I would say yes. I mean, you know, alpha sort of in air quotes is a function of, you know, information flow and how information flows in a market. And what I like about this space is that, like, there is no standard, there's no SEC reporting. Right. There is no regulatory body that's governing, you know, reporting other than tax returns, which is a little bit different. But in this space, like, you're only going to get the information that you ask for. So if you don't know questions to ask, then you don't know the questions to ask. And also, like, just because you ask a question and request a piece of information doesn't mean that the seller wants to give it to you. Like, seller doesn't have to give you anything. So it's, it's. That dynamic is, I love. Because you, you have to build rapport with the sellers. They have to trust you, you have to trust them, and then they have to be willing to give you the information that you ask for. So it's just the whole, it's an art. Like due diligence is an art and just obtaining that information is, is fun. I think that there's. Because it's so nuanced, I think that I hope that like there is, you know, that alpha in this part of, I'll say, the broader market. Right. And I don't see that really going away anytime soon. So that's. I'm happy in this part of this. Of the market.

[1:12:54] Host: Ben, anything that I didn't ask you or that you wanted to make sure that you had a chance to share with the audience.

Guest: We did cover a lot. No, I mean, the only thing that I would, I would say, because I've talked to a lot of people that are thinking about doing this and across their interest sort of spans the whole sort of spectrum. But I will say, I mean, it's just a normal Guy, anybody can do this. I really believe that you really can do anything you set your mind to. And if you really set your mind to, to this, to S and P and ETA and the growing and acquiring, growing of a small business, like I believe that anybody can do it. It's just a function of, you know, how well you build your team, how well you tell your story. But like I really, I guess the message I want to send is like you don't have to go to a super fancy business school. Like you don't, like anybody can do this. Just a function of networking and learning. But yeah, I mean it doesn't, you don't have to be a superhero here, but you totally do not. So it's, it's an interesting opportunity for people that have that, you know, bright risk tolerance and willingness to, to go learn and try it out.

Host: Ben Breyer, how can people reach out to you?

Guest: Yeah, people can reach out to me via email is probably the best. Okay. It's just my first initial, B as in boy and then my last name, B as in boy. R Y E R. I would say at High Spire Holdings. Yep. And you can just go tohighspire holdings.com and you can contact me through the website there as well. But yeah, I mean that's, I would say that that's by the best way to get in contact with me.

Host: Awesome. Ben. Well, thank you very much for giving me so much time and, and sharing the arduous ups and downs of a very long search. But Meyer Gauge seems like a really, a really neat manufacturing business. So like I said, at the top you've earned where you now are. So congratulations.

[1:15:11] Guest: Thanks for having me. It's been awesome. Hopefully people can learn from some of the mistakes I made and hopefully gives people some motivation and inspiration to go get hopped into eta.

Host: Great. Thanks Ben.

Guest: Thank you, Sam.