[00:00:00 - 00:06:33]

Will Smith: Today's guest bought so small the business wasn't much more than a guy in a truck, a hobby for a retired engineer on the cusp of retiring for good. But his phone just wouldn't stop ringing calls from real estate agents who needed his radon mitigation services in order to put clients homes on the market. A good friend of Kevin Ramseyer was one of these agents and sensing opportunity, suggested that he and Kevin meet with this radon guy. So Kevin and the real estate agent friend meet with this gentleman at a local Big Boy restaurant and the guy's flip phone doesn't stop ringing the whole time. They offer to buy the business right then and there at the big boy for $60,000.

The seller, eager to properly retire and join his wife down in Florida and accepts and finances 30 of the 60 grand. Our conversation today is how Kevin and his partner turned that hobby business into SWOT Environmental, a leading franchise system in the radon mitigation space and a business that exited to private equity for almost $80 million ten years later. Note that Kevin does not recommend searchers buy a similarly small business. As we know, there are plenty of guy in a truck businesses for sale and they are precisely the ones you want to avoid. While Kevin did see dazzling success with his, the journey was harder than it needed to be, he thinks, and they benefited from tailwinds.

Some alignment of the stars Looking back, says Kevin, it's a lot easier to own a smaller piece of a much bigger pie and than go through the pain we went through. Which incidentally is what he does today. If you want to hear about his NOW venture as an independent sponsor, we did a second interview with Kevin over on the Mind's Capital podcast to learn how he buys businesses these days. Highly recommend you listen to that as well. It aired Last week on June 11th.

The Mind's Capital podcast. Check that out. Okay, here is Kevin Ramsire, co founder and former owner of SWOT Environmental. Your LOI is a key step to being taken seriously as a buyer. Attorneys Bill Barlow and James David Williams return for an Office Hours to walk us through the do's and don'ts of this critical document.

James, David and Bill will also be sharing their LOI template, which they've updated to reflect those recent rule changes from the SBA that office hours is this Tuesday tomorrow, June 17th noon Eastern. Register at the link in today's show notes or on the Acquiring Minds homepage. Acquiringminds Co. Also, one thing you may have heard said on Acquiring Minds is that it's surprising how little Offshore talent is used by entrepreneurs in their new acquisitions. Offshoring would seem to be a key lever, an obvious way to generate value in a small business, but we don't hear about it very much.

My guess is that's due to an assumption that offshoring works in white collar office work, but not in the blue collar businesses so favored by searchers. Well, in an upcoming webinar, Nick Huber yes, that Nick of sweaty startup fame will correct this idea and show you how offshoring can indeed be a tremendous tool that you bring to your blue collar acquisition. Nick has built an empire in self storage and offshoring roles to the Philippines, to South Africa, to Latin America has been key to his success in that industry. The webinar with Nick is How to Offshore in a Blue Collar Business. It is Tuesday, July 1, 2, 30 Eastern.

Register at the link in today's show notes or on the Acquiring Minds homepage. Acquiringminds Cool. Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses. My name is Will Smith. Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs and on this podcast I talk to the people who do it.

If you ask owners in the ETA and search community which insurance broker provides highest quality work, great outcomes, and has a practice dedicated to searchers and acquisition entrepreneurs, one name comes up again and again. Oberle. Oberle Risk Strategies has worked with hundreds of searchers over nearly a decade and is in fact led by a two time successful searcher, August Felker, which makes Oberle a specialty insurance brokerage for searchers by a former searcher. And if you've got a business under loi, Oberle will provide complimentary due diligence on that business's insurance and benefits program. An easy, no risk way to get to know August and the team at Oberle to take advantage, check out oberle-risk.com that's O B E R L E- risk.com link in the notes.

Kevin Ramsire welcome to Acquiring Minds. Thanks Will. Kevin, you're the Managing partner of Sire. Capital Partners, an independent sponsor group that you founded. There is much to say about what you do today, some of which we.

Covered in a separate interview for our sister podcast, the Mind's Capital Podcast. Today you and I are going to. Spend time on your origin story or your first big success, which is a. Story of acquisition entrepreneurship. It was a remarkable outcome with lots of themes that this audience will recognize.

Let's begin. Kevin, going back even further, tell me a bit about how you grew up, please. Sure. Well, thanks for having me. It's A pleasure to be on.

[00:06:33 - 00:11:55]

Kevin Ramsier: I. I'll take you back to the beginning, I guess. I grew up in a small town in Ohio that had one stoplight, very modest. My mom was a factory worker. She was a welder.

And she raised me by herself. I was the only child. So it was just her and I. She taught me really good values. We just.

Financially, we. We. We weren't well off. And in fact, you know, if you wanted something in my house, you had to go. You had to go work for it, whether it was football cleats or whatever it was, you had to go work.

So at a young age, I just started, I guess you want to call it hustling, but I was kind of forced into entrepreneurship when I was a kid to make money at a very young age. And I started mowing yards and grew that and did other things that, you know, shoveling snow in Ohio and the snow. Snowstorms and created really a nice little income for myself to be able to afford the things that I wanted, whether it was a car, eventually as I got older, and other things. And in fact, I tell this story a lot. I often tell my mom, you know, she had these big dreams for me to go to college and get a normal job and escape the situation we were in.

And I tell my mom today, if she wouldn't have made me go to college, I'd have the largest landscaping business in the country right now. And they're selling for pretty high multiple. So we joke about that a little bit. But you did all right. Yeah.

You know, I always had that in me of like, you know, as a little boy, driving by businesses and looking at them and thinking, you know, what. What does that person do? How did they build this? And questioning that. I was always super fascinated about.

About the freedom and the possibilities and the upside. Financially. I was really driven by getting out of the situation that. That. That I was raised in.

Of. Well, financially. So. But in the back of my head, I had this thing of following the path that, you know, that my mom wanted me to go and go get an education. And so I was the first kid in our family to go to college.

And it was a remarkable opportunity for me to. I tell kids this a lot when I talk to them, that college is less about the classes you take and more about the hands you shake. I was able to meet some just incredible people and their parents that were doing things that I wanted to do. And I've always been very curious, and I ask a lot of questions, and I would sit down with their parents when they would come watch us play a football game and say, hey, I want to do what you're doing. You know, can you help me?

What would you do if you were me and listening to their guidance and support and college was a very, a transitional time for me. I always got good grades, I worked really hard. I was never the smartest kid in the room, but to me grades were more of a competition. Like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fail. I want to be at, you know, at the top and, and compete with these other kids.

And, and so I, as I went through college, it, it helped me kind of get more comfortable around people that had financial success. And so, and I never really was, I was never exposed to that. I mean we had people flying in on, you know, jets to watch a small football game and you know, we're thinking about how can we get gas money to go there to, for my mom to see us. So, and she was at every game. So I had a great support network.

So I get out of, I get out of college and immediately land a job in financial services and, and I, I actually build up a nice book of business that another advisor. Within 18 months I had sold that practice to, to another advisor in our office. And at the time it was, you know, a big check for me. I was like, I can't believe I just did this. And this was in the, in the mid-90s, right before the Olympics were coming to Atlanta.

And I thought I was, you know, untouchable. I, I had a giant ego and I like I can build anything and make this work. And so I went down to Atlanta and to, to buy some real estate to transform it into kind of properties for, for, for Olympics. For the Olympics that were upcoming. That is a whole other story.

That is probably a whole other podcast. But long story short, I ended up losing everything that I had made and I had a two year non compete to go back into that industry. So I couldn't go back into something that I really knew and was successful at. Can I stop you here with a. Couple of follow up?

Sure. First of all, how much money are we talking? Understanding that you were in your early 20s, so it wasn't huge, but it was big for you at the time. How much was it? I don't recall.

It was a, it was an adult number for me at the time. It was financed over a two year time frame. So it was like an earn out out. So as long as those clients stayed, I got a piece of their production and so it was an Income stream for me really to, to go out and do what I really wanted to do. But I failed miserably.

And it was probably the most humble and humiliating time of my life. I'm young, 20, probably 25, I believe I was at the time. And I actually had to move back home. And it was embarrassing because I was. And it almost validated of like you should have went out and got a real job and made yourself successful.

[00:11:56 - 00:12:29]

Will Smith: Well, what happens next is, is really fascinating. Before we get to it, I'm curious how you reflect back on college. Excuse me? Having gone to college, you said, I love the expression it's not the classes you take, it's the hands you shake. But do you think that if you had honestly, seriously now, the landscaping business or some other hustle, if you had just hustled instead of gone to college, do you think you should have or do you think going to college, your mom was right to basically force you to go to college?

[00:12:29 - 00:13:42]

Kevin Ramsier: I think there's truth in both sides of those. I've learned some great things and met great people that I would not have that have got me to where I am today. So I can't say that if I didn't go there. Definitely though the learning experience, I think I use 5% of what you, what I learned there. It was more about the relationships and who I met and the contacts and the ability to show people and the self belief it had in me coming from where I came, that I can compete with these people like I am capable, that I needed that and you know, playing sports and I had never really taken on leadership roles when I was growing up.

I just kind of kept my head down and worked and, and I was a captain of the football team, president of the fraternity. I really took on leadership roles that helped me listen better to people and, and, and, and lead. And I'd never done that before. So it was a great experience from that perspective. But from an education standpoint.

Yeah. I question, you know, what did I get out of that other than a piece of paper that is kind of a right to passage to go get a big job. Yeah. Yeah. So I hope that answered your question.

[00:13:42 - 00:14:37]

Will Smith: It does. That was great. I probably would say my own college experience had similar value for. Value for, for similar reasons. The other thing I'll, I'll call out and I know from our conversation yesterday that I just heard you say it, but yesterday you said one of the most impactful questions or unlocks throughout your career has been to ask people what would you do if you were me?

And, and apparently you were asking the, the parents of your friends that, you know from the, from the bleachers or whatever at football games. So I just wanted to call it out, highlight it here, because you said yesterday that that has really just been an incredible, an incredible go to question over the course of years and years. And still my favorite question today, after this call, I have a call where I'm going to ask it to somebody. Here's what I want to do. Here's what we accomplish.

[00:14:37 - 00:16:52]

Kevin Ramsier: You've done it or you're close to that. What if you were me? What would you do? How would you go about it? And I mean, I, we do it all the time with, in, in our businesses of asking the best way to ask for referrals, not to say, can you give me more business?

It's to, I want to build my business around other successful, whatever they are, like you, if you or me. How would you go about doing that? And that has led to enormous success for us. That one simple question, you know, the, the other two questions that I think have changed my life as we're on this point is just asking people, what are the chances of us doing something together? Like a simple question like that.

What's the chance that you and I can go out and do something together? You know what we do, you know how we do it. You've seen our results. What's the chances that we have to work together and, and then just being quiet and listening their response. And I've, I've had a lot of success with that question.

And then obviously, you know, internally, my favorite question, why I'm sitting here. I'm, I never want to be the smartest guy in the room. So it's always like, who else do I need here to get us to where we want to go? Me thinking internally and every business problem that we have, who else can help us here? What do we, and because it's the, the answer is usually a person.

That's a person that knows something we don't. That has really catapulted us to success. So I think those three questions have, I, I mean, transformed my whole life, if I was to be honest. And that last one about, it's, it, so it's kind of identifying what the missing piece is and what that person looks like or, or the talent they have or the title they have or where you can find them. Yeah, I, I, this is a little hokey.

And I don't share this with a lot of people. It's, that's, I don't want to say it's embarrassing but I do read this every day. It's like I trust the universe to bring the right people in the right situations to me every day. And if you trust that, doors start opening for you. Right.

If you're looking for that, you'll start seeing it. Great. Kevin, thank you for the digression. Back to the story. You returned from Atlanta which was a bust as a young real estate speculator.

[00:16:53 - 00:17:06]

Will Smith: So you've had one success and now kind of one bust tail between your legs. You go home, pick us up. Sure. So I literally have zero dollars. I went from earning a great income to having, having nothing.

[00:17:06 - 00:21:36]

Kevin Ramsier: And my mom at the time who I adore and has been a great influence on me is she had twelve hundred and fifty dollars in her bank account and I asked her to. I'm gonna get, I get emotional sometimes when I share this story so I don't talk about it often but she, she gave me $750 to run an ad in the Wall Street Journal. And this was pre WSJ.com this was like the real print version of the Wall Street Journal and it ran nationwide and it said young aggressive entrepreneur. See small growth company. And it had my mom's phone number to our, our little abode that we, that we lived in, that I grew up in and 70, 72 people I think it was over 70 people called on that ad and I guess that was like a searcher before the term searcher was even available.

Now in full disclosure probably over half of those people were you know, multi level mark. They wanted me to join their downline or something. They were like wow, this is interesting but, and actually one guy called from, he was out in Nebraska, known to construction oriented business and we had talked several times and he was interested and liked me and when he found out hold I was, I was like 25. He was like my guys are going to chew you up and spit you out. There's no way we, we could do this.

And so it was a little frustrating. And then the very last call I received was from a CPA and the CPA had, had had acquired one of his clients businesses out of a bankruptcy auction. And it was a concrete batch plant with eight brand new trucks and had said look I, I can sell these for more than I bought them for but there's a business here. And I was still under kind of a non compete I couldn't go back into financial services so I felt a little stuck and I don't know if I would have done that If I had other options. But he said, I'll pay you a small amount every week.

And here's what I have into this business. Let's build it back up and whatever I sell it for over and above what I have into it, you know, I'll give you a percentage of that. And so I did that and I moved there, lived in the plant for a few months because I had no money to put down for deposit. And where was this plant? This was in.

It was in northwest Ohio. And you were. You and your mom were based where. Like Akron, Ohio area, Northeast Ohio. It was an interesting conversation.

He said, look, I've. First off, I've been reading the Wall Street Journal my entire career. I've never seen an ad like this. It's very interesting. And I noticed the area code was Ohio base and I had to call.

And so I drove over there and met him and sat down for breakfast and he started talking about this and he took me to it. We looked at it and, and so we came in there and we turned that thing around and they ultimately sold it within a year. And that helped, like, I got some capital to be like, okay, now I'm here. And by then my non compete was starting to end and I had worked, I have done work with some investment work with Invesco, as in my financial practice. And so they were calling me and saying, look, here's an opportunity.

We have to go raise capital for our funds. You did a good job when you were on the other side of the fence. Come, come over here and work with us. And it was an opportunity at the time. I'm like, maybe, you know, maybe my mom was right.

Maybe I should go after this and, and go, you know, try to build a career here. And so I did that. I went and I worked there. I traveled around and raised capital for the funds that they were, that they were raising. And I was really good at that.

I rose up the corporate ladder pretty quickly. And I remember this. This was 20 some years ago, Will, but it was. I was in a hotel room and I looked in the Mirror and 10 years had went by and I was a partner and I was making more money than I ever thought I would as a little boy, you know, growing up and. But I was the most unhappy that I had ever been in my whole life.

Even during the Atlantis. I was just miserable.

[00:21:38 - 00:21:56]

Will Smith: Just not liking your work. Yeah, look, I was happier mowing yards in Ohio when I was a kid, like building my own team. And I wanted that feeling back. So I think a little Bit to my mother's dismay at the time. I called her up that day and I was getting ready to get on a plane and I'm like, I think when I'm land I'm going to give my two weeks notice in.

[00:21:56 - 00:22:27]

Kevin Ramsier: And I was a pretty young partner there. Most of them were older, older folks, so everyone was a little surprised and shocked. Looking for an SBA loan to buy a business. Then meet Pioneer Capital Advisory, your team for getting an SBA 7A loan quickly and at great terms. The team at Pioneer has closed 81 SBA loans in just the last two and a half years, with an average close time well under the industry standard.

[00:22:28 - 00:23:55]

Will Smith: Founder Matthias Smith and general manager Valerie stash both have 10 years of SBA experience and know the process cold. There are three analysts at Pioneer who build you a lending presentation that speaks the language of the bank's underwriters and gets them to. Yes, two account managers to guide you from underwriting to close as fast and smoothly as possible and two sales associates ready to walk you through the Pioneer Capital advisory process. That's nine people at Pioneer. A real team to get you where you're trying to go.

New owner of a business. Go to pioneerCapitalAdvisory.com or click the link in the notes. Just on the. Going back to the ad in the Wall Street Journal, that was sort of a job ad. Yeah, I mean it was a, it was a complete, you know, a creative thing.

You took out a full page ad but your hope was that somebody in an organization would call you to offer you a job. You weren't necessarily looking to that that was the end goal. No, I mean my, my thought was there has to be a, there has to be quite a bit of individuals out there that are setting on something that have no really transition plan and maybe I could be that for them. I saw that in financial services there was a lot of older folks that had built a good book and were like, what do I do with this? Who do I sell this to?

[00:23:55 - 00:24:22]

Kevin Ramsier: At the time this was mid-90s and I'm like there has to be so many businesses out there where there's a 68, 70 year old owner whose kids are now dentists and they don't want to move back to Springfield, Missouri and run the right, the ball bearing company. They, it's just not sexy. And I really wanted to do that and I thought that that would catch the eye of someone like that. So it really was. Yeah, it really was a searcher.

[00:24:22 - 00:24:39]

Will Smith: You were a searcher. Yeah. But they called it crazy back then, but yeah, it was. It was a searcher. So I guess that didn't, it didn't work out exactly that way.

You didn't, you didn't get business owners. You got the CPA in the concrete business, which worked out great. Where did you come up with that idea?

[00:24:41 - 00:25:46]

Kevin Ramsier: I don't recall. I knew I wanted. I knew I had a great mentor who said. When I called him and I said, look, I've got a promotion within this company that I work for, and I'm really proud of it and I've worked hard for it, he goes, he goes, congratulations, you're gonna be. You're gonna be very rich.

And I said, thank you. And he goes, but you'll never be wealthy. And I said, well, what's the difference? And he goes, you know, when you're rich, you know what you make every year. He goes, you, when you're wealthy, you really, you have a lot of free.

You don't know exactly what you made. You know, it was a lot, but. And you have this freedom. And that just stuck in my head all the time. And so when I, when, when, when I, when I think about that ad, I always think about, like, the equity part of this.

And I don't know what made me say that. I just know that I wanted ownership. I wanted to own something if I was going to go help build something. Yeah. And give us just a little bit of more on the concrete story, Kevin, because I know it from our pre.

[00:25:46 - 00:26:00]

Will Smith: Call and it, and it's, it's a, It's a story of being very scrappy and clawing your way back. So, so give us a minute or two on, on what it looked like as you turn that concrete business around. And the numbers. Can you share those numbers? Yeah.

[00:26:00 - 00:32:02]

Kevin Ramsier: It was a long time ago. It wasn't like, it wasn't what I'm. What we're doing now, but it was. Yes. You know, it saved me.

It was. He had, I think it was a million and a half into the business. He paid me 500 a week to run it and to grow it. And we went out and said, you know, who's our ideal customer? What's our ideal customer look like?

We really got focused on that. I actually, the employees would come in and they were like, you hear all the time. And little did they know, I was like, sleeping there, and I had a gym membership. I'd go in the morning, take a shower and come back, and it was scrappy. And we built that thing up.

And then a large competitor ended up buying us. And the percentage that I got, you know, could have helped me live for the next two years, But I really took that and put it into savings and said, I'm going to reinvest this into something else. And then I. When I got a job at Invesco, I moved to this neighborhood, and I joined a gym there to work out in the morning. And there was this young kid, he was 20 years old.

He was selling gym memberships. And sometimes I'd go in in the morning, depending on when my flight was, when I had to leave, and sometimes I'd go late at night. And he was always in there all the time, just hustling. And I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm like, do you own this place?

Like, you're always here. He's like, no, I want to own something someday. And he was young, 19 or 20 years old, and we became really good friends. I was pretty young at the time too, 25 or so. And.

And when I. We. We would sit and talk a lot, and he's like, I think I want to do something different. Like, he pretty much asked me, you know, if you were me, what would you do? And I was like, well, I would like to invest.

I tried real estate. I think there's an opportunity there. I'd. I would get into real. You're a good salesperson.

I'd get into real estate. Like, you can kind of control your own destiny there, and there's. There's a lot of upside. Instead of making a salary and a commission, so he did that, and he. He became one of the best real estate agents in.

In the Midwest. Like, the guy was just an animal. And he had sold my house, and we were still good friends. And out of the blue, he calls me and he said, kevin. Well, we would talk, you know, once a week.

And he called me and he said, hey, have you ever heard of radon gas? And I was like, kind of. When I wasn't paying attention in chemistry class, I think it's. I think I recall hearing that name. He's like, no, it's the.

It's. It's in. Prevalent in a lot of homes, and it holds up a lot of real estate transactions. A lot of mine that I do, we have to get it tested, and then if it's high, we have to get it fixed. Because the problem is there's one guy in our area that does it, and he's booked, like, four weeks out.

And he goes, I know every realtor in. In our state like that. That's of consequence. And I think if I started something like this, they would use us. And so I got really interested in that.

And so I flew out. We met and we went to dinner, and the next morning we woke up really early, and we're having coffee and. And I said, what's that guy's name that, you know that is booked out? And he gave me his name. I go, do you have his number?

He's like, yeah, I call him all the time. And he usually takes my call because I give him a lot of business. He puts me to the front of the line, so I'm like, let's meet him today. And so he gave. He gave that gentleman a call.

He was a kindest soul. Like, he was just a great guy. And we went and we met him at a big boy restaurant in. Right off the highway. We sat down at a big boy restaurant.

Back then. He had one of those little flip phones that flipped open. Sure. It was sitting on the. On the counter.

We're drinking coffee. And he was explaining to us how he had retired from Ford, he was an engineer, he needed to do something as a hobby, and he started doing this. And now he felt like he was letting everyone down. And the whole time he's telling us a story, his phone's just like vibrating. I'm twisting around on the table, and that's when I'm like, wow.

We just. You're. You're actually hearing a cash register. Yes. That phone rings.

Yeah. And his reaction was like, oh, it would always like, oh. You could tell he was just. He felt like he was letting people down. And he had handful of employees that worked for him.

And, and, and he goes, look, I'm retired. My wife now, she lives in Florida, and I want to get down there. We have a condo down there. All I want to do is like, go down there and. And retire.

And so I said, well, how much would it take for you to do that? And. And he's like, I don't know, like $60,000. And he financed half of it. So.

And I had left and, and, and my partner, who. Whose name is Jamie, who's just. Was in my wedding. He's my best friend and we were really close. The real estate agent.

Yeah. And I knew his work ethic. He is. He is really a marketing savant. He was phenomenal.

He was just obsessed with getting the phone to ring even more than it was on. On that table, spinning around. And. And he was willing to give up his. His role in real estate to go make this thing Happen.

And so I kind of. We sat there and listened to him. We ended up buying that company, that little. Would call it a company. It was a hobby at the.

For the guy at the time, it was a little business. And then shortly thereafter, we. We. I would talk with Jamie every day, and we would think about obstacles to running it. How can we build out the fleet and where do we expand next?

And talking through all the growth challenges. And finally one day he, you know, he called me and he said, kev, I need help. He goes, this thing is, is. It's either going to continue to double every six months or it's gonna go to zero. I.

I'm. I need help. I can. Too fast. It was growing way too fast, and we were having some challenges with people.

[00:32:02 - 00:32:34]

Will Smith: And Kevin, before we get into the. How it grows, let's just spend a minute on the transaction. And. And I know that in the grand scheme of things, the transaction numbers were insignificant because this became such a big. A big success.

But you said $60,000, and it felt like the seller just kind of pulled that out of the sky. So assuming here it wasn't based on earnings, multiples, anything like that, it was kind of everybody just kind of doing one of these. Sounds about right. It's exactly right. And.

[00:32:34 - 00:33:24]

Kevin Ramsier: And that thing was due in large part to my partner because he had tr. He knew his work ethic. He knew that how he treated people. He knew that he could trust him handing that over to him, and that his clients were going to get taken care of. And that's really ultimately what he wanted.

I think a lot of searchers today try to back in. If you start the conversation of what does the next chapter look like? What do you. In an ideal situation, what do you want it to look for for you? Because if it was all financials, I would have offered him a lot more money than that and been willing to pay for it because it was a great.

It was a great business. But he just wanted to hand it over to someone that he could trust and get on with his life. And we helped him accomplish that. So it was a good lesson. And Kevin, one of the things that.

[00:33:24 - 00:35:01]

Will Smith: Searchers avoid are businesses like this that are so small, so fragile, so much key man risk. Sounds like this. This gentleman had a few employees, but really it's all about this guy. He's getting these direct calls. His flip phone is the one that's blowing up.

He's the personality that people want to deal with. So, so. And I know you'd agree, yes, those were all Serious fragilities in the business. You figured it out. But I guess this becomes such a big success, a multi, multi million dollar success.

Spoiler for the audience. Is there a lesson there in finding. Some uncut gem for the, for the lesson for the audience and finding some similar uncut gem today that has incredible potential because this, this, this pattern still exists where guys got a small trades business and he's barely holding on. His phone is blowing up constantly, he can't call him. In fact, you hear a lot about small businesses, small kind of home services businesses that they don't return your calls because they're so busy.

So was there something, some special ingredient here that made it so powerful? Or in fact, could this model be repeated today in 2025 with a like business that some searcher stumbles upon? It's a good question. I think about this often and keep in mind at this point in, in my career, I, I really didn't know what I didn't know. I, yeah, if, if I knew what I knew today, I probably wouldn't buy that business.

[00:35:01 - 00:37:21]

Kevin Ramsier: You know, it would be too small. And yeah, you're right. And it wasn't an overnight success like it, we took three steps forward and sometimes five steps back and it didn't happen in three years. It was a decade long journey of years where it wasn't working well. So it sound, it all sounds great to look at.

I mean I had had hair when, when we did that transaction. You know, it was, it was, it's always harder than you think. And I, I don't know if I would do that again. I mean the, I, I, I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth because I'm, I want to buy larger businesses now because I'd, we're looking back, it's, it's a lot easier to own a smaller piece of a much bigger pie than to set somewhere and go through the pain that we went now. It was fun, we had a great time and it was, it was interesting to see but there were some scary times in that business as it grew too fast and, and so I don't know the answer to that.

I, I do believe there are, the stars are aligned for us. Like it was a highly fragmented industry. It was this niche environmental space that was gaining in popularity. People were starting to figure out they were actually law right when we were buying it. There were, you know, laws changing where, you know, realtors had to test for radon in a real estate transaction.

So I, I think the, there were. Tailwinds there then Then there. It really was a moment in time. Yeah, it was. It was.

There just one. There was no large national players at the time doing it. And so we thought we were. We were on to something. We found something that was incredibly niche that lots of people didn't know about, that was the second leading cause of lung cancer, right behind smoking cigarettes.

So it was. And there were other things that had happened. People were, you know, they were threatening. There was some legal issues for Realtors not declaring that there was high radon levels in a real estate transaction. So the.

The industry was starting to change to say, we've gotta. We've got to start doing this. And this. This guy had built a great reputation and every Realtor wanted to use him. So it was.

Was. It was a good point in time for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And so you and Jamie.

[00:37:21 - 00:37:33]

Will Smith: So you make. Decide to offer him the $60,000. He says $60,000. You say, okay, right there in that first meeting in the big boy. Yeah, yeah, we bought it.

[00:37:33 - 00:38:31]

Kevin Ramsier: We bought it. And he took. He financed half of it for us, and we paid him off. I think it was six to eight months we had him paid off, but we were just like, let's just pay him off and, you know, be done with it. And so we had to keep a couple of his employees on.

That was one of his arrangements. Like, I just want these, you know, some of these guys to stay on for at least a year. And after that was over, we brought in our own people, but it was it. And. And I had actually, you know, my partner was running it at first, and.

And I. We'd talk at the end of the night and beginning of the morning on, what's your day look like? What do you need from me? What can I do to help? And then he calls me, and this was right in my transition of like, what am I doing?

Like, I want to go do something. And. And we were figuring out the marketing side of this on the home. This is 1990. You know, this was probably 2000s, early 2000s.

[00:38:31 - 00:38:44]

Will Smith: Right. And so we were figuring out the marketing side of this, and he. He found. He found this piece of software that we wanted to buy and bring in house to. To help us.

[00:38:45 - 00:39:09]

Kevin Ramsier: And so we did that. He goes, I want to focus on that. I need you to help with how do we think about running this business. And so that's when I moved back there and. And took.

Took over, like, really became the CEO. While he focused on the building out, the sales and marketing and. And other things, we would. We Kind of shared dual roles and things overlapped. And it was, was this the moment in the mirror.

[00:39:10 - 00:39:23]

Will Smith: You're in the hotel room and you look yourself in the mirror, realize you're miserable state. What am I doing? Like, I want to go build this. Like, let's go build something really cool. And, and so I, you know, you leave that to go.

[00:39:23 - 00:39:51]

Kevin Ramsier: We didn't make any money for the, the first few years. It was like really, every dollar we made. We'd buy new fleet new trucks. We, we had no debt. We would just run the business on.

We'd get money and we'd buy, we'd go into a new market. Let's go, let's buy everything we need to go start buying the ads, get the people hired. And as fast as cash came in, we just kept growing the thing. We just, it just kept, just kept growing really quickly.

[00:39:54 - 00:40:10]

Will Smith: Yeah. And the, and, and this was. Where was the first territory? Mid Michigan was where we bought it in the middle of Lansing area. And then you just kind of, and then you just spread from there.

[00:40:10 - 00:40:32]

Kevin Ramsier: Yeah. Grand Rapids, Detroit, Kalamazoo, Cadillac, then to Toledo, down to Indianapolis and just kept spreading. And do you feel that the way you grew the business, like standing up a new territory would be similar today? Marketing would be different. It would be all digital today.

[00:40:33 - 00:41:18]

Will Smith: But do you feel like the motion of basically as, as you said, you, you P and L. The van. So you weren't even using financing. You just, when you had the cash, you'd buy a new van in cash and find a guy to run that van and voila, you're in a new territory. You're in a new market.

Correct? Yeah. And do you feel like that that formula would, would work today if, if it's in a, if it's a, in a market with demand, if it's in a service with demand. I mean, what, what's different today? And, and again, think about this from the perspective of searchers who might be looking at home services businesses and contemplating how they can grow something much bigger than it currently is.

[00:41:18 - 00:42:34]

Kevin Ramsier: Yeah, I think I was much less sophisticated than I am today and didn't. Again, didn't know what I didn't know. And it seemed like, you know, taking on a bunch of debt didn't make sense since the business was producing a lot of cash.

And there were moments when we grew into some states when we shouldn't have and we hired the wrong people and those that were learning lessons. So some of those issues, both of us, if he was sitting here with me, he'd say, the same thing we learned from, but we wouldn't probably replicate. But those lessons, those mistakes are embarrassments that you have are the best learning things that you can. The next five states we went into, we did it better, and we were smarter and more intelligent about how we did that. There were some close calls there that I wouldn't.

That I would want to avoid, but that's part of the process. You've got a. It's. The success in this business is not linear. You know, you're gonna.

You're gonna have some pretty big setbacks. And it's just, how long can you. The person that can hold on the longest wins? Getting into the mechanics a little bit. Would using debt in some way have been a way to grow more comfortably?

[00:42:34 - 00:43:02]

Will Smith: Because you were. You were also just frantic. I mean, so you, you know you're losing your hair, right? During these years, it's growing. So the business fundamentals seem good, but you're also frantic and breathless all the time.

So was there. Was there being more sophisticated now? Was there a way to have used debt to do this more comfortably? I think there would have been. My concern at the time, we were all about grow, grow, grow.

[00:43:02 - 00:44:16]

Kevin Ramsier: Like, let's. Let's just continue to grow our footprint while we can before someone else kind of figures this space out. Let's go capture this. We're going to own this marketplace. Yeah.

And, you know, a. A large piece of debt would have just made us want to go even faster at that point. So to some degree, the way we did it managed to our lessons that we were learning along the way. Oh. Oh, yeah.

But, yeah, knowing what I know now, it would have. Sure. If we knew the full scope on how we should grow, but we just didn't. We were, you know, I, I don't want to say we were figuring it out as we, as we went, we would take calculated risk in a market, and then it wouldn't work. And we'd say, why come back to the drawing board and have to revisit it?

But it was always operational problems. The farther away that we got from our base as we went into Colorado and Pennsylvania and Virginia and Baltimore, the, the more we lost control over the customer experience. And that was all. That's the problem that we had a very difficult time solving. And until we decided to take a twist on the franchising model.

[00:44:17 - 00:45:45]

Will Smith: You know that one of the most common levers to pull in a target acquisition is technology updating the systems of a business that may still be running off a spreadsheet or even Pen and paper. But tech is complicated with tons of solutions out there. So choosing the right cloud platform, CRM, telephony, compliance and cybersecurity, not to mention implementing all that, is a job in itself. Acquiring Minds Guest Nick Akers knows this firsthand. As a former searcher who now owns Inzo Technologies, Nick has seen the tech challenges searchers face when acquiring businesses.

His team at Inzo regularly works with searchers and their acquisitions, offering a complimentary IT audit of the target company. Nick takes a personal interest in all their searcher clients, drawing from his own experience in the search phase. Enzo dates back to 1989. So this is a company that has managed the tech for hundreds of small businesses over decades. And one last thing, no long term contracts with Enzo.

A big differentiator. Check out inzotechnologies.com I N Z O or email Nick directly@nicknzotechnologies.com and don't forget to tell them you're a searcher. Let's hear about that twist. Yeah, we pivoted. We had these pockets.

[00:45:45 - 00:49:13]

Kevin Ramsier: We had these markets all across the country that were far away from our base. Our core markets, you know, call it five, six, seven states in the Midwest that we could manage pretty well. But as we got into, you know, Boston and Philly and other markets, it was challenging. We had a great business there, but we were having turnover and we were having customer issues. Sometimes we more than we were in our, in our, on our corporate markets.

And so instead of going out and selling a raw franchise, we did we franchise the business. We took these larger markets, Atlanta, all these other markets that were farther from us and we had multi million dollar business operations in those core markets. And instead of finding someone that wanted to spend a small franchise fee for a startup, we found business people. We found people that were leading teams in corporate like I was when I left. I really believed in this model of like let's go find people that are good leaders that have led people before.

They don't need to know anything about radon. I want them to know how to lead people and manage a team. And we had built out a software package that was turnkey for a custom software package that was really turnkey to help people come in and measure the KPIs and to see the business from on a dashboard level from a different perspective than they may have. And so we went out and instead of finding startup areas, we sold our existing territories. So we'd say look, this thing's cash flowing a million and a half.

Here's what it's worth. We'd put a multiple on it, we'd find someone to buy it, we'd finance a piece of it, and then we'd get royalties off of that as well and sell them the equipment and support their business. And we own the marketing in that. So we would send them the leads. We'd know how to close them.

And so we really taught them how to be successful. And then each and every one of them grew those territories because they were able to sit there at 7:30 in the morning before all their guys went out in a van and, you know, and, and coach them up and tell them what they had to do that day and, and really have their, have their finger on the pulse of that particular business. And, and they were insightful and helpful and for us too, of saying, look, you guys got to change X, Y and Z and having us go back to the drawing board. And so we really monetized all those areas that we built up. And then we, we stepped back and said, okay, what else can we do in the markets that we're in and what other market should we be franchising?

And, and that's what led. And that was the pivot point where I'm like, okay, I, I want to go do this more in other industries like where. And that's when Jamie and I sat down and, and we talked about what the, what do our roles look like. It was much more manageable now that we had this thing in place. And we basically decided that I would roll some equity, he would, we would work together to find the solution to buy me out.

And so I had, I rolled equity over. We, we had the, we, we did very well on selling those territories and supporting them. We had a business that was paying a royalty along with our corporate markets that was doing well. And, and then I, I rolled equity into, I kept some equity and then took some cash and went and started. That's when really Sire Capital was created from, from that exchange.

[00:49:15 - 00:50:36]

Will Smith: Well, and I want to spend some time on that, Kevin, but before we get to that, can you explain this decision to so, so business is growing. You're, you're expanding further and further away from your core corporate markets, your home base, and in those far, those, you know, far flung territories, quality's going down. You're having quality control issues. You decide to make the business a franchisor. But instead of selling new territories de novo territories, you basically sell as existing territories to local business people in those markets.

So this is a case oftentimes searchers will, will see franchise Resales on the franchise, franchise resales on the market. And sometimes those will be actually being sold by corporate. So corporate will have corporate owned locations that they, for whatever reason want to sell. That's what you guys were doing sort of at scale or not or all it all at once to solve the quality control issue. Question is, why did that solve the quality control issue?

Because these entrepreneurs are just now going to care more than some, than your kind of local employees did. Why did that solve the quality control? Yeah, they, they were vested. They put a big chunk of their life savings. This is a business for them.

[00:50:36 - 00:51:32]

Kevin Ramsier: They left their jobs to buy these things and they're running them full time. And the first one we sold I knew was going to be the most important. So it was someone that I had known very well and I said, I need you to sit. It was our Denver location, I need you to set up shop here. And he kind of set the tone and would help interview other people and teach them what to do.

He became one of our most successful franchise awards and really our spokesperson for. And they leaned into him for more training and it was just a model that I knew that would work. Could we have hired, in hindsight, could we have went through the process and hired GMs to go run these things? Probably. But we decided to go this route to bring a little more professional knowledge into the business that we probably lacked in each of those territories.

[00:51:32 - 00:52:19]

Will Smith: Mm. And what other decisions or impacts does going from a, all corporate owned to a franchise model have?

I. My understanding of why a franchise, why a business would become a franchisor in general is to supercharge growth because now it's a more scalable model. You sell franchisees, you develop all these sops and you can really kick up how many loc, how many, how quickly you put dots on the map. That was not your motivation number one here, but, but maybe was that your experience that it unlocked growth a little bit as well? Absolutely.

[00:52:19 - 00:55:25]

Kevin Ramsier: I mean these territories started growing faster than our court, our corporate owned territory. So these people are in there every day working their local markets, going to the realtor's offices and the property management companies face to face, shaking hands, kissing babies, asking for the business. And we didn't have anyone there doing that. So they were, they were running the business, they were running their business in their territory every day, paying attention to it and it started showing. So it did, it did spark growth and it gave us an opportunity.

We had to change our mindset a little bit from, into a support network. We always handled all the, all the marketing and we had a giant call center where people from our marketing people would call into our corporate headquarters and then we would pass the leads on to the, to the local markets. And so we had a really good system that we could scale, that we knew we could really scale. I think the problem. There wasn't a problem.

It was just my partner and I were so close and it was the first time really we had a different vision for the business of what we wanted it to do and not in a. It was very cordial. It wasn't like, why do you. We had markets like Iowa, there were a lot of Nebraska. There were other markets where we didn't have.

There was demand. We just didn't have business operations and probably about 11 or 12 other states. And he wanted to go in there corporate owned De novo. And that was always. We could make it work and we learned a lot through the process.

But it was like we've had, we've got this unbelievable success. Let's just sell de novo franchises there and sell them the, the get the royalties, teach them the system and let them run it. That was working really well, but obviously you can make a lot more money if you do it yourself. And he saw that. I just saw it was a time for me to be like, I want to go do this in another industry or go go look at other things.

And. And so we just agreed on a multiple or enterprise value for that business. And this is after we kind of sold a lot of our territories already and split those profits. And then I took that and. And then he was right.

Like he went and grew it even more. And so he, he went out and they bought a bunch of more vans and they went out and continued to do it. And I was his biggest cheerleader from the sidelines, but I got a chance to go kind of diversify and do other things as well. Can you share what these, these two liquidity events look like? What the valuation was when you decided to step away?

Yeah, it was in, you know, it was, it was, it was above 25 million. I mean it was because we had sold all these other markets around and then the, the value of that business. And he owned half and I owned half. We had, we never had like major disagreements where we were going to battle with each other. We'd always seemed it was a great relationship, business wise and personal, where we'd come to terms and then so, so.

[00:55:25 - 00:55:39]

Will Smith: 25 million or so the. When you first exit and you own half of that, you rolled 10%. So let's say you walked away with, call it 10 million. 10 million ish. A little more.

[00:55:39 - 00:56:02]

Kevin Ramsier: I think that's fair. That was, it's a little more probably after we sold those other markets, but that's, that's probably fair.

And then, and then you rolled, you. Kept 10 in and then he kept building it and then sold it outright. Right. A few years later for it was. Above 70, it was just under 80.

[00:56:04 - 00:56:13]

Will Smith: So your, your 10% then became another. Yeah, great second bite. Nice, meaningful second bite. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:15 - 00:57:13]

Kevin Ramsier: And so it was, it was a great experience for me. It was, it wasn't. You know, we did other things together. We bought real estate together and did some other investments together. And, and I, I just wanted to go see if I could, could I scale this, could I find people that were like me that to invest in and spread that money out and help them continue to grow.

And that was, that was my really passion at that time was to go out and try to put all this money to work and see if I can, if I can grow these and help coach them and grow those businesses. And, and say more about that because. In our, in our pre. Call you, this theme has come up with you in my handful of conversations with you about investing in people. Another way of thinking about this is investing in private markets versus public markets.

[00:57:13 - 00:57:39]

Will Smith: You, you dabbled in, in public stocks and had held Enron. That didn't work out well. Yeah, so, so there is something in you that's really drawn to the lower middle market private businesses and the people that populate them. So please say more about that. Yeah, I, I think it is more about having the opportunity to control outcomes.

[00:57:39 - 00:58:38]

Kevin Ramsier: If I go buy Tesla or I go buy a public, I'm not having any influence on the outcome of the performance of that company. This I believe we have very hands on. We have a tremendous say, if not the final, we have the final say in the direction and strategies that these businesses take to create amazing outcomes. And to me, look, especially when you go through a situation like you have a piece of your net worth in a, you know, publicly traded company that is no longer with us and that disappears and you're like, I had nothing to do with, I had nothing to do with this other than picking a horrible, you know, stock to, to invest in. I was like, if I'm going to go down, it's going to be on my decision.

Something, something happens to me. And so I really, I really wanted to bet on myself. So to this day a small piece of my, you know, net worth is in public Markets and I would rather own private companies that I can control.

[00:58:40 - 00:59:08]

Will Smith: Anything more to say about buying big versus buying small? Have we kind of exhausted that or is there more? No, I think our profile today is, you know, we're looking for at least 3 million of EBITDA before we buy something. I think we can, we can still impact the growth. You're, there's, there's always this balance in people's mind.

[00:59:08 - 01:00:14]

Kevin Ramsier: I think I might have talked about this before. I say this a lot. I look at people and there's, every person has this balance between security and opportunity. And I think today Those businesses, there's 30 year old businesses where the owner started with a ladder in his truck 30 years ago and never thought he'd be making 3, 4, 5 million dollars in profit and doesn't really want to risk going out and scaling that into other states, into other markets or to other verticals. And that's exactly what we look for.

We look for those types of management teams that want to take something that a founder did incredibly well and scale it. And there's all kinds of opportunities and challenges that come with that. And our job is to coach them up and to show them the way and to be there as a support and sometimes a therapist to talk them through those challenges. And Kevin, at the top, I, I characterized Sire Capital as an independent sponsor group. So, so give us a few more sentences on, on, on, on what Sire Capital is.

[01:00:14 - 01:00:28]

Will Smith: They say more than just independent sponsors. I would say we're kind of like a hybrid family office. We have some LPs that will come into deals with us. We bring deal by deal. We don't have a fundamental, we look for, you know, we have, we have very simple thesis.

[01:00:28 - 01:01:08]

Kevin Ramsier: We want to own companies that do at least 3 million of EBITDA where that have strong management teams and that if we look forward 10 years, we get a strong belief that 10 years from now, whatever they're making or servicing, there's going to be a higher need for it in 10 years than there is today. And can we build the smartest people in the room around that space, motivate them with equity and a, and a great paycheck along with equity and upside and go out and tackle that market and win. We want to win, win, win every day. That's what we talk about constantly. You're so you.

[01:01:09 - 01:01:48]

Will Smith: There's an evolution here. There's a, there's actually a lot to your story between. By the way, audience, the, the name of the radon business was swat. SWAT Environmental, right? Yeah.

So, so there, there's a lot to your story between the SWAT environmental exit and, and, and what how Sire Capital looks today that we didn't even get into. But suffice it to say, you have a lot of operational experience and you bought this tiny business going back to swat. Now you bought this tiny business and built, really built it up. Question is, I know that you interact with a lot of searchers as well. You're plugged into unc, you're based in Raleigh.

[01:01:49 - 01:01:59]

Kevin Ramsier: I'm in Charlotte. You're based in Charlotte. You're plugged into the UNC kind of search ecosystem, or you've spoken there, as I recall. Duke, Duke and others. Duke, sorry.

[01:02:00 - 01:02:53]

Will Smith: And so you interact with searchers as well. Is there.

Some, some. Path where you think that searchers can go right into being independent sponsors to really think big? We talked yesterday in our call yesterday about thinking big. An independent sponsor buying $3 million EBITDA businesses like you do, that's kind of the next level of entrepreneurship through acquisition.

Is that something that somebody needs years and years of operational experience like you had to go off and do, or could they come right fresh out of, out of business school and start doing that? Yeah, I think you can do whatever you think you can handle. Like, I, I, I, I had someone that owned a bunch of subways once tell me I started with one. And, you know, running one subway is a lot harder than running 150 of them.

[01:02:56 - 01:04:02]

Kevin Ramsier: I don't know if that makes sense. I, I do think there's, there's just different challenges and it's, it's such a personal thing. The one thing that I can say is this is when I talk to searchers, there, there's this desire to own. You know, when we're buying a company that size and we're putting up the capital, we're controlling those businesses. We give a lot of equity out.

We let people earn a lot of equity in them. But there is this element to controlling their destiny. And I think you can do that. When you can, when you buy a smaller business, there's more risk at the table associated with it. And I would say if I was a, if I could go back and talk to my younger self, I would say go buy of the larger business, go get support, buy a larger business, own a smaller piece of, can pay you what you deserve.

You won't have to not have an income for three years while you build a business. And you will have a lot, you'll probably have a lot more hair when you're older and you'll get a lot of more sleep. That's great. Very clear. We're going to wrap up here.

[01:04:02 - 01:04:44]

Will Smith: Kevin, I wanted to ask a personal question. Do you have children? I have four. Yeah, I do. Now that you are raising kids and, and are a family with money, how do you treat their relationship to money?

Since so much of your origin story was learning to hustle from a young age, we, we, we. This is a common question for people who've, who've made a little money in their lives. How to, how to teach their kids to appreciate money, to work hard, etc, all of that. How have you approached that question? It's something I talk a lot about with friends of mine now and when, how, what, what they handle.

[01:04:44 - 01:07:28]

Kevin Ramsier: So it's a good question. I'm glad you asked this. It's super important. I believe now I'll give you my answer. And it's not a popular one.

Most people don't like it, but I'll share it. And this all stemmed from. This was a while ago. I have three daughters, I have my youngest as a son, I have a 17 year old daughter, I have twins that are in 14. And then my son's 12, he'll be 13 here shortly.

This was a while back when my son was young. I took all my kids to where I grew up and we went, we parked in front of the house and I, my mom and I grew up in and I got teared up. Like I, I just sat there and my son was super little and he's like dad, are you, are you crying? And I'm like a little bit. He goes, what's wrong?

And I'm like, that's where Nana and I grew up. And he looked over at me, he's like dad, you would never live in that house. You know, it's like they, they, they, they're so young, they don't get it. But I had, and this is what we do in my house that has helped me. And this came from one of my mentors that I met in college who had a son.

This guy was very wealthy and he had a son that was a good friend of mine who was just, you know, T shirt, you know, always having, he was always like getting coupons and saving money. And I'm like, you are. So you guys have like four houses around the world and you're so wealthy and you're clipping coupons and, and his dad told me, he goes, look, when you have kids, here's the rule that you need to. And this is how we've We've raised our kids when they're, when they turn a teenager, I, I tell them, you know, I'll always be here for half of whatever you want. Like when you're 13, you want, you want a 200 pair of jeans, you got to show me a hundred bucks or whatever it is.

You want a twenty thousand dollar car or a hundred thousand dollar car, you got to show me you can make 50 or whatever half of it is. And so all of our kids work a lot and you have to be willing to have some junky looking cars in your parking lot. But I would rather in your driveway. But I'd rather have that. And kids that have really strong work ethics and so they all, they all understand that they have to go roll their sleeves up and save and make money and make good financial decisions before, before they're going to get access to anything.

If, and that we're always there to pay for half. And if you can't come up with the first half, you're gonna have to lower your standards or increase your work ethic or increase your output. So that has helped us. A lot of people don't agree with that and I get it, but it's, it's helped us I think, because, because. They think it's ungenerous or harsh.

[01:07:28 - 01:07:48]

Will Smith: Yeah, they're like, why don't you just give them. Yeah, I think it's harsh. A lot of people think it's a little brutal. You know, my kids do at first too, but then they see it and the first one that went through it, the others were, now they get it. And now even the younger ones are like, man, I'm gonna have to save this much money.

[01:07:48 - 01:08:15]

Kevin Ramsier: How can I do that? Like they're starting to think about the consequences of what that means to invest in yourself and have to save money to go get things you want. Yeah, I've never heard this one it, but I really like it. I like it a lot. It it because I mean I've heard the extremely harsh version where it's just like cut them off or, or they just don't get any special sure.

[01:08:15 - 01:09:04]

Will Smith: Access to anything that another kid wouldn't. You know, they get their allowance and you know, and that's not necessarily more generous than in another family. But this is, is it instills the work ethic and the, in the need to understand, you know, to, to figure it out on your own. But it still does have the cherry of the benefit of coming from a family that has resources because you can amplify their efforts by doubling their efforts. So if they can get to X you'll.

Because of who you are, you're able to. You're willing to take them to 2X. Whatever it is. It's a really interesting, really cool. Well thank you for sharing that.

I know it's very personal. They're still young. Okay. But you have seen, you have seen it. Yeah.

[01:09:04 - 01:09:18]

Kevin Ramsier: It worked for someone that I really respect. So I'm following that. You know the best ideas are the ones you get from other people that are. That it's working for. What would you do if you were me and now you have money and you have four kids.

[01:09:18 - 01:10:08]

Will Smith: How do you treat people? Exactly. Exactly right. That's exactly right. Anything else you want to leave us with?

Kevin, thank you for sharing this this story. It's such a great. Was such a great run. I've now heard it a couple times. I love it every time and you tell it so well.

Anything else? No. Well, this has been great. I appreciate you having me on. It's been a pleasure.

Great. Well we will provide links to your LinkedIn to Siren. Yeah. And if people want to reach out and. And do you.

Do you show up at Duke from time to time is there some people. Should watch out for I think once a year show up and speak there. They have pretty strong ETA classes and stuff like that. The. The only other thing I would add is if anyone's listening to this and they do find a larger business that they could that what I've said resonates like we.

[01:10:08 - 01:10:18]

Kevin Ramsier: We look for really good operators that are solid people that have hard work ethic and and really want to go grow. We'd love to talk. Great. Great. Yeah.

[01:10:18 - 01:11:07]

Will Smith: Yeah. Perfect. Note to end on Kevin Ramsar, thanks for joining us. Thank you Will. Hope you enjoyed that interview.

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