Host: Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses. My name is Will Smith. Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs and on this podcast I talk to the people who do it. Today's guest, Martin Bispels bought a business in disc golf, a sport that is small but fast growing and with a passionate community of players. What really struck me about Martin's story, other than how kind of fun the business is, is how much prep he and his partner did. You'll hear how his plans for hiring and supply chain management, even company culture, these were all in place before he signed on the dotted line to acquire the business and they've been rewarded for this preparation. After only a year of ownership, he took an e commerce business that had dropped to zero sales and had zero inventory when he acquired it to one that is closing in on a couple million dollars in. So congrats to Martin and team on this early success. Here he is, Martin Bispels, owner of Upper Park Disc Golf. Martin Bispels, thank you for joining me today on Acquiring Minds.

Guest: Thanks Will.

Host: You are the co owner and CEO of Upper Park Disc Golf, which is an e commerce store selling and brand selling primarily bags but also accessories and supplies to the disc golf for disc golf, which is obviously a growing, rapidly growing hobby sport. The acquisition is almost exactly a year old to the day yesterday and by all accounts from what you've told me offline, it's going really well. So we're going to hear that story. But why don't we start as we always do with your history and what so give us that kind of the two minute version on you bio on you and what led you to want to buy a business.

Guest: Sure, sure. So you know, my career really spent, you know, entry level positions, working my way up at a large company, a large retailer with billions in revenue and I ended up leading the sales team at that company and it's qvc, the shopping channel and really had a great run there, learned a ton. Gosh, so many smart people there. And I learned an awful lot just from growing up there. So I ended up leading the sales team when we merged all the channels together. So really figured out what multi channel commerce was. And then I led business and corporate development which was kind of the crazy idea department. It was like figure out new ways to make money, Martin.

Host: I was like, okay, sounds fun.

Guest: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And I knew the business really well so I knew how to create incremental revenue and incremental value. So I really enjoyed that. And then in 2014. I resigned to start my own consulting practice. I really wanted to work with these small companies directly and help them grow. So did that for seven, eight, almost eight years. And then Covid happened and I really rethought kind of what I wanted to do. And I thought, no, you know, consulting is great, but it has its pros and cons. I really want to own a company and operate it as my own. And so that's what we did.

[3:18] Host: Just to drill down on your experience at QVC a little bit, because I think it is relevant to now having purchased a consumer brand. So QVC is the shopping channel, so most people will be familiar Americans. It's kind of 24, 7 programming of products where there's a host or two talking about a product and you can call in or use the website and acquire the buy the product. And so I don't know the background. I mean, excuse me, the process, and we don't need to get into that. But essentially you're out there sourcing interesting products in the world to put on television and sell, basically. So stop me if I'm so far, so good.

Guest: That's right. There's a whole merchandising team that goes around the world and sources products. Yeah, that's right. All over the world. It's really an amazing model, the sales team. My job and my team's job was to figure out, okay, we have the product now, how do we present that product on air and then as we developed, online, on mobile, on social. And so really a dynamic business, really interesting. A constant wave of new products. Everything from the guy who invented this quirky little invention that you think, oh, I should have thought of that, to major brands, Dell computers and all the major beauty businesses and brands sell on qvc. So really a dynamic, diverse kinds of business. But yeah, all consumer products, one at a time. Really direct selling in its really sort of purest form.

Host: And what you guys are doing at corporate is basically asking yourselves, as you're considering all these products that you can put on air, will this sell? And sometimes, like you said, you'll have something that you think is a slam dunk. It's going to go gangbusters and then it fails, and vice versa. Things that are unlikely hits, Right? So you're kind of at the front lines of consumer product, product market fit, if you will, for consumer products.

Guest: Is that fair In a live environment where you find out in real time whether something's going to be a success or a failure? Right. And to your point, absolutely. Sometimes you think, oh, this Is a slam dunk that everyone's going to love this and it doesn't perform. And the inverse is true. So the sales department, I always told my team, assume every product is great. It's our job to figure out how to present it effectively. Right. And so that really created a good delineation between the merchants whose job it was to source these products. And think about the question of, is this product market fit? Is this going to sell? They've already done all that homework. So I always looked at our job of how do we present it in the most effective way possible that really gives the consumer enough information to make an informed purchasing decision. Is this right for them and their lives? You know,

[6:04] Host: do you think that having seen so many products and many of them, you've probably seen a lot of flops or ones that just didn't perform to your expectations? Do you think that, like, made you want to acquire a business that had already had a product that had sold before versus starting something from scratch? You can see where I've been. I've been leading here.

Guest: Yeah, yeah. No, I think it was definitely a factor, you know, and we did think a lot about that, my business partner and I. Do we, you know, buy, build or partner. Right. The agent question. And, you know, we certainly could and I have built from nothing, you know, from an idea on a napkin, you know, in my consulting days. But I knew that, you know, just the momentum that you get from having a brand that already has, you know, a great reputation for quality like these, all these products did. And, you know, especially in, like, most industries, the disc golf space is, you know, small but very intense. It's true of many industries. And so having a brand that the consumer already recognized and knew. Oh, yeah, those guys, that was super, super important also because the sport is growing so fast. There's lots of new entrants every day. There's more people making discs, for example, for the sport. And so to not just be another. Oh, another new one to leverage the brand equity and the goodwill that the brand had was certainly an advantage.

Host: Okay, well, tell us then about the search process. Did you go looking for a discoff? Did you have a thesis around disc golf? Or were you looking at. What were your parameters in your search? Tell us about the process.

Guest: Yeah, so from the very beginning, Jim and I, my business partner, you know, I said, look, let's, you know, we can get excited about any one thing. Let's. Let's develop some really clear, objective criteria.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: About what kind of business we would want. And I find that so, so helpful. Right? Just like when you start an M and A practice, right. At an organization, you really think about, okay, why are we doing this? What are our goals? Because it's easy to get excited about any one opportunity. And so really objective criteria that we developed. And I can talk more about that. We vetted dozens and dozens of companies before finding Upper park, and it was actually kind of the opposite. I actually. I've loved disc golf since I've played since my 20s. I actually have baskets here on my property. So I actually had the opposite reaction. Like, okay, wait a minute. Don't love it just because it's disc golf.

Host: Right.

Guest: Make sure it's really a great opportunity. It's everything. It seems like it is, you know, really heavy diligence. So I probably did more vetting and more diligence because it was disc golf, because I knew that that was something I would naturally really enjoy being part of.

Host: Yeah, that was wise because obviously most people. You were aware that people's passions can lead them astray. And so you didn't want to buy something you thought was cool or fun.

[9:05] Guest: I'm sorry.

Host: No. You didn't want to buy something because you were just a fan of the sport and thought it was cool and fun, like it needed to stand alone as a proper business that met your business criteria, for sure.

Guest: And when vetting companies, when I was leading M and A for qvc, it's easy to get excited about any one thing because somebody with influence says, hey, you should really look at this company. Oh, okay, great. It's easy to sort of just get excited about something, and it's really important then to have a very clear, sober path towards the decision of actually acquiring a company.

Host: So, yeah, I would like to hear what those criteria were that you guys had decided on.

Guest: Well, you touched on one which was an existing company with revenues and profit.

Host: Right.

Guest: There's certainly plenty of ideas on a napkin out there. But to have something that is proven that this can be successful, there is demand for the product market. Fit all of those kinds of thoughts. We wanted it to be us domicile, or at least be an easy transfer if it was foreign domicile. We wanted to be privately owned. We want it to be innovative, something different, something we'd be proud to tell our friends about and not something like commodity. At the time, of course, there was a new mask company for Covid every day. I was like, we don't want to make masks. I mean, that's just a commodity. It's not going to be Fun. It's not going to be that interesting. So something that's pressworthy and interesting and cool and disc golf certainly fit the

Host: bill there

Guest: that the company was seeking an exit or willing to stay on for a transition period at least. And we actually did better than that with our. The way we structured it. Something that's recession proof. Remember this is September of 20 and a lot of questions still about what is the economy going to do? Are we going to come back from this thing? And so something that we knew that we could say, wow, in good times and bad, there's a demand there. And this was. Upper park was interesting because it had all the momentum of the outdoor boom. Remember, you couldn't buy a bicycle for three months or something. So everybody was getting outside. And you know, disc golf is terrific because you're outside, you're with people, but you're not, you know, immediately you don't. There's no contact. Right.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: So you. Social distance and, and so it fit that bill and the larger, you know, trend of just everything outdoors, just like visits to national parks, you know, have exploded. You know, consumer products, something with, you know, consumer products is my wheelhouse. Right. So I've done other things, services, B2B, that kind of thing, but software. But it's not as sort of in my wheelhouse as much as consumer products just because of my past experience. And then also within that something that either had been successful or could be successful outside of Amazon. You can get people talking about Amazon and there's a lot of opinions. Certainly I knew that we didn't want to have a business that was purely reliant on Amazon for many reasons. I think that there's a direct to consumer movement that's really strong and

[12:31] Host: there's

Guest: just some really important values around direct to consumer businesses that I appreciate. The relationship with the customer, the margins, the fact that Amazon can't just turn you off on a whim or knock you off. So all of those things are really important. Directing consumer model was important. We had a number of different industries, but really consumer products was where we were at. We wanted industry tailwinds. We wanted to be asset light. We didn't want to buy a bunch of buildings. Certainly right again, back to where the economy was. We wanted to do some kind of social good. So we wanted to be in a space that we could identify some socially responsible activities. And we've done that now with our charity support, support of our partner charity Uplay disc Golf. And we wanted to be able to operate remotely again during lockdown. And everything else, I work from my barn, my team is all working from home and I love that model. And then finally, more tangibly, we preferred an asset sale for many reasons. The idea of an asset sale is you're buying the assets of the business and not the business itself, the company itself. And that has some advantages to it and it helps in the diligence and betting you.

Host: One criteria I didn't hear, which I often do here, is recurring revenue. And I don't know in disc Golf if there is anything that is is recurring. I think in consumer products generally, unless it's, you know, shavers and shaving cream, you know, it's some in some sort of consumable recurring can be difficult. Does. Am I. Is there a recurring element to your business? And why was that something that didn't matter to you? If there isn't?

Guest: There's not a recurring revenue element of the business currently. But we certainly have room to expand there. And so I certainly understand recurring business. There's a beauty to them, there's a magic to them. Every marketing dollar works harder when you're getting recurring revenue. And I understood that. But I also felt like as long as we had a great product that people were really satisfied with, they'll come back often enough. One of the terrific stats of this business is that we have 80% new customer traffic every day. And so that's wonderful because it proves that there's a really large market out there that people are constantly discovering us. And so, you know, and that changes the criteria of sort of how you have to structure the business and market the business. But I felt that, yeah, if there wasn't recurring revenue, then you would certainly want a steady flow of new customers. And that was sort of built in.

[15:22] Host: So how did you identify? So you had these criteria and I found you from a video that Flippa did on you. So I know that you went to Flippa, but tell us more about the search. Where did you go in addition to Flippa, if there were.

Guest: Yeah, so the first place we went was just our network. Jim and I have a, you know, both have a terrific business network and really different and complementary networks in strong business contacts, senior leaders, et cetera. And so we leverage that. Right. Just there's lots of deal guys out there. There's lots of people who have are shopping deals all the time. We both know a fair amount of PE firms and VC firms. And so we tapped our existing network and that was very helpful just to start to get the temperature of what's out there. And then Absolutely. There's these online marketplaces like Flippa and others that we. It's easy access. Right. It's all right there. So extremely valuable and helpful to be able to quickly find and vet these opportunities.

Host: It's interesting, of course, you did find the business on Flippa. It's interesting to me because Flippa and online marketplaces in general have a reputation for the businesses being a little less desirable because if they were more desirable, they would have been sold through back channels. What you initially tried where you worked, your network. But in fact, I talked to so many people and so many of them, in fact, do have found the businesses that they acquired on their marketplaces. On a marketplace. But I'd be curious to hear you respond to that. Like the quality of deals that you saw when you worked your network versus what you were seeing on Flippa.

Guest: Yeah, I really prefer to find deals on marketplaces. I think it's much more honest. You know, I've done the Sandhill Road tour and, you know, you sort of only get what they're willing to give you, you know, and so, you know, there's. There's too many gatekeepers. There's too many, you know, egos and nonsense involved. I really prefer the open marketplace model where it's just out there. And John, the seller was smart. You know, he could have, you know, found a guy that made big promises about what he could get him for the business. You know, he saw the opportunity and, you know, he's also, he's just a great guy. He's a good human and he just listed it honestly. There was no puffery, there was no inflation of numbers. It was really honest. And I really prefer that model. You know, again, having done the, you know, Silicon Valley tour and, you know, many times it's. It comes with a lot of baggage and nonsense, you know, so to be able to just cut through that was really refreshing.

[18:05] Host: You had said that you immediately loved the business when you saw it. Upper park. And you've told us what your criteria were. Did you love it just because it met those criteria and because you happened to be an aficionado of the sport, or was there something more? Tell us about when you first laid eyes on the business.

Guest: Yeah, yeah. Well, one, it's absolutely. It rang the bells on all of those criteria. Right. Super important. And again, my vetting mechanism of like, okay, don't just get excited because, oh, it's now you can space travel and it's like you can get excited about any one thing. But okay, objectively it made sense. 1 2, I really liked the seller, John. He's just a really good guy and he was very smart about how he had built the business. He was very honest about what he was not able to do because of just capital and bandwidth. He was very tuned into the industry and the sport, knew a lot of people. I knew immediately that we were going to be able to get traction in the space, right? There's always. In any industry, there's always. You got to find the power players, you got to find the competitors, you got to know what you're dealing with, the lay of the land. And he really knew that. And so his experience was super important as well, and again, helped us really understand the size of the opportunity, the fact that it was innovative and it was something that I would be proud and I am proud to tell my friends about. That was super important. And then financially, it had some very good years in its sales history when they were in stock, when they were able to get the marketing together. And again, John was really doing most of this all by himself. And the fact that he had had that success with very limited resources and bandwidth told me, okay, well, if we can bring what I knew we could bring, I thought, well, we have a pretty high chance of success here.

Host: And so tell us the history of the business. How many years old was it and what was the state of it? You just kind of alluded to it. What was the state of it when you found. When it was listed on Flippa?

Guest: Well, so the company would. The previous company was started in 2011 by John and two college buddies out in California. And they did it because they were into disc golf and they just thought it was really cool and it was a great sport and they saw opportunity. John had really invested a lot of time into the. The design of the bags and being really smart about listening to customers feedback about how to constantly improve the designs. So they've done a really good job of that. But frankly, at the point of sale, I mean, the company was really at a standstill, right? There just wasn't the capital for inventory or marketing.

Host: So there were effectively no sales at the time you're looking at this, right?

Guest: And no inventory. And so he had sort of run the, you know, you know, run the gauntlet on that and just was where he was, right? And, and so, you know, of course, the first thing we saw was, well, let's get in stock because there's proven sales history. Let's just have the product available for sale. You don't have to be a rocket science. So that's one of the first things we did right after the acquisition, we ordered a bunch of inventory to be able to get in stock and stay in stock. It's interesting in Disc Golf, all of the manufacturers, because of the boom of the sp, had been operating the way they operate, but they were all taken by surprise at the boom of the sport and the demand for the products. And so it's sort of even now still the case that, you know, many products are coming to stock and get blown out and are out of stock quickly, which really frustrates the customers.

[21:48] Host: Right.

Guest: I mean, there's some advantage of that. You know, there's scarcity marketing and all of that, that works to a degree, but. And certainly I know a lot about that, but you know, that's not the way to really build a strong brand. And so being in stock, staying in stock, getting ahead of the reorders, staying ahead of the global logistics, which was certainly a challenge, which we can talk about. You know, that's really the right way to build a company. And that's exactly what we're doing.

Host: You know, it's interesting to me that he sold when he did because I mean, it just sounds like the business, the interest in the sport had only grown since 2011 when he started it. But of course, as we all know, last year was a giant year for E Commerce. So it seems like an unlikely year to let your inventory drop to zero and hand the reins over to somebody else. That would be the year where I'd be wanting to hold on tightly to my E Commerce business.

Guest: Yeah, yeah, yeah, understood. But at the same time he was working another full time job and again, he just didn't have the resources to be able to put into the business to make it grow. And so, you know, I don't want to speak for him, but I mean, he considered other possibilities. Right. Loans and other kinds of things and ultimately made, you know, chose the path that he did and I'm sure glad he did.

Host: And so he had never been full time on the business. Nobody had ever been full time on the business.

Guest: I don't know if that's. No, I think there was a time when he was. But it was sporadic. I mean it had never gotten to the point where he was able to sustain it full time and so was always working other jobs and so forth. So. But again, had some pretty good years despite that.

Host: Great. Okay. So the business is essentially not selling really anything effectively when it's for sale and when you acquire it, there's no inventory, so you need to acquire that inventory. But what is the. And you've also mentioned how John now works with you on the business. So he came with the business. So tell us a little bit or whatever you can about the deal to acquire the business.

Guest: Sure. So my very first conversation with John was after I had already dissected all the data, everything I could find, done my own research, understood the industry, the players, the competitors, all of that, and traded a whole bunch of emails with him asking a whole bunch of questions, typical diligence questions. And then very specific to the business questions. And then my very first conversation with John, I still remember it was we got acquainted, and then I said, john, I really respect what you've built. I think it has enormous potential. And what I'd like to do is make you an offer. But as part of that offer, I'd like you to actually come on board as an equity partner and be part of this next wave of success. And, of course, that was music to his ears because this was his baby that he had built. And so his thought was, well, I'll just sell it and I'll get what I can get. And so it really, right from the beginning, I also just really liked him. Our core values that we can talk about are really important to me, and the kinds of people that I'm working with are super important. And so I knew that he fit that. The culture that I wanted to build. I knew that he fit the core values that I was setting up for the business and really wanted him to be part of this next wave. And that's exactly what he's done. I also asked him very specifically, what do you enjoy doing with the business and what do you not? And he was honest. He loved the product design. He loved figuring out the next innovation. Okay, we're going to add a pocket, and we're going to. He loved that kind of thinking about all based on customer research and feedback. Okay. So understanding what he wanted to do with the business. And then I asked him, okay, what do you not enjoy? He said, honestly, the logistics, the supply chain stuff. And so I said, okay, great. That was super helpful in the structure of the business, because then I knew. I tapped my network and found a supply chain guy who just loves to talk about shipping containers and UPC codes all day. Loves it. And so Tim, he's a great guy. And then marketing people that I knew, you know, I know a lot about marketing, especially digital marketing. And so I knew what I needed, but I needed people to be able to actually execute on that.

[26:17] Host: All right.

Guest: On that, on that strategy so built the right structure with all the right other people and players that I needed and then put John in the role that he, I knew would most enjoy. Right, so that was the structure as far as the people. You know, the financials were pretty straightforward. You know, there was a, there was a purchase price and we did an asset sale like I said, so that we're buying the assets instead of the company itself transferred to our llc. I mean it's sort of run of the mill deal structure kinds of things. But I will say that Flippa made all of that very, very easy. All of the deal docs, everything could go through their platform and escrow and all of of that.

[27:01] Host: It just made it very easy bringing John in. That sounds like something that occurred to you because it was the right fit. But is that something that if you were to do another deal or advise other people out there buying a business, if they can get it, it's great to bring along the original founder?

Guest: No, it's very purposeful. And actually in the other acquisitions that I had done for qvc, I brought people in as well. And so yeah, absolutely, it's something I'd recommend because no matter how much diligence you have or you do or, and how much expertise you have in the space, there's always going to be things that you don't know and questions that pop up and so and contacts, you know, that can be extremely helpful. In the very beginning I said, okay, John, we want to have a player team. Introduce me to, you know, 20 of the players that you think would be great. Okay, great. And it was an email, you know, I didn't have to go searching and reaching out cold, you know, to these, who the hell is this guy? You know?

Host: Yeah.

Guest: So warm introductions, right. And knowing who the players are and being able to say, oh wait, is it this company that. Oh, okay, you know, just in the very beginning. Right. So extremely helpful. And of course there's a number of ways to structure that. Right. Here's he's an equity partner, he's in for the long haul, he's going to be with us, you know, Then of course the other, you know, the other kinds of structures are at the very least, you know, some kind of earn out, right. You know, stay on for 90 days or something and, and that's nice for everybody. It certainly helps the buyers and the sellers always happy because it's essentially another bite at the apple, right? They're getting the purchase price and then they're getting whatever they're getting to stay on for however long they stay on.

Host: Sure. Yeah.

Guest: So definitely something I recommend because it's just extremely helpful to have that kind of knowledge transfer.

Host: Martin, as I hear you talk about what you did post acquisition and how you brought in these people to really ramp up the business, it seems like there's. There was a lot of cost, not in just the acquisition of the business itself, but all of the investment you were going to put behind it once you acquired it. Can you talk a little bit about that with an eye toward how a lot of people might go on Flippa or one of the other marketplaces and see businesses for sale and say to themselves, yeah, I can afford that or I can make that work, but maybe not realizing that that's the first of a lot more money they're going to have to shell out to really grow. Grow a business that they buy.

Guest: Yeah, well, and I, and I, and I saw it so many times in consulting. You know, they just look at the initial price of something, whether it's, you know, a PO from a large retailer or whatever, or a new product line, and they, they don't look at the real costs. Right. The ongoing costs. And so Jim and I, from the very beginning, set a budget. That was one of our criteria. Okay. That we have this much money. And so that included. It wasn't just the purchase price, it was everything that we knew that we were going to need to ramp up the business. And I had a budget for that, you know, before we finished the deal, I knew what the first year financials were going to look like, you know, and so extremely important. And, and, you know, I mean, I was fortunate that I had all the experience of consulting to be able to know what it's really going to take. Yeah, I mean, you know, I certainly have built large strategies, but I also really am an operator at heart, and so I really understand what it takes. And then of course, we have a CFO that helps me make sure the numbers are straight and I'm not dreaming too much, but really going in, knowing ahead of time what it's going to take to ramp this up. And of course, it's an E commerce business. You know, you need inventory, you know, you need marketing. Google and Facebook aren't cheap. And so knowing what you're going to have to put into it, extremely important right up front. I would never complete an acquisition unless you were really, really sure what the first year looked like as far as what it's going to take to get the thing going.

[30:45] Host: You said in your consulting business that you'd seen a lot of entrepreneurs make this mistake. Is there some cost category where they often overlook it? Like, is it in terms of, like, hiring people, for example, or marketing costs or something?

Guest: Yeah, I would say a very common misconception with consumer product businesses for sure is, oh, well, if I just get into Target or if I just get on Amazon or if I just, you know, they see that as like, you know. And now again, these are very small startup kind of businesses, people with, you know, an inventor entrepreneur type, where they just don't realize all the things that goes into it. You know, the risk of RTVs from a retailer. Right, Where. Where all the product comes back if it doesn't sell, if you're lucky enough to get on Target shelves, wonderful. But if it doesn't sell, it's all coming back. Right. So you have to be careful of that and understand the risks and the costs of that. So I see. And not just in consumer products, but in software. I mean, I've built SaaS businesses and people just get sort of enamored, especially the visionary founder type of person. They get enamored with sort of the silver bullet it. Right. They think, oh, if I could just, you know, oh, if this company would, oh, then we. Everything's going to be, well, it's just not reality. It's not how you build a business, you know, and it's true of sales in general, too. I mean, you know, when sales were, you know, exceeded expectations or were well below expectations. You know, in my experience, it's never one thing and everybody wants to blame this or that. No, the reality is that, you know, it's a lot of factors that go into success and failure and therefore risks and costs that go along with those as well.

Host: So when you acquired Upper Park, how many people you'd mentioned a supply chain person that you brought in, you brought on the founder, how many people did you add to the team right out of the gate?

Guest: So I have a core team, about seven people, and they're all. We have an accountability chart, so it's very clear who does what and who's accountable for what. And I can hold people accountable because the expectations are very clear. And that's one of the things I knew from consulting. Right. Typical startups have either two people running around trying to do everything or 100 people running around with chickens or their heads cut off because they're tripping over each other and doing a lot of nonsense, creating a lot of smoke but no fire. And so knew from the beginning, and again, an operating mindset knew that we needed an accountability chart, knew exactly, exactly the positions that I was going to recruit for, what each of their roles were going to be. Very, very clear, even down to metrics and KPIs for each. And so I structured that, recruited on it, and now we have those people in place. And, you know, I'll occasionally bring on, you know, this or that if we need some extra help in one area or not. But knowing exactly what you need, the roles of each, the accountabilities, and most importantly, the culture that you're setting, we've set up these core values that are extremely important. And I recruited on them. I made sure people really fit the culture that I wanted to build. Because the Peter Drucker quote is wonderful. Culture eats strategy for breakfast. It's a wonderful quote and it's so true. You have the right people in the right seats. I, I think you can convince, you can, you can solve anything. Right? And so extremely important. Whereas. And so I also sort of, you know, hire slow fire, fast. Right. That's another sort of, you know, maybe a little trite, but, but expression that I really try to live by. And so, yeah, a core of about seven. And, you know, so we're all really strong players or else they wouldn't be in the same.

[34:44] Host: So when you acquire the business, you were saying to yourself, you know, the moment we take ownership, we're going to go out there and acquire. I mean, we're going to go out there and hire six people. Or, I don't know if you, if you included yourself and your partner in the seven, whatever it is, four to

Guest: five more people had a. Roles to play.

Host: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a bit. That must have been, there must have been some risk. You felt with that, like, are you going to be able to hire quickly enough? And, you know, this business is effectively generating no revenue. So every day that you hold it without invoice inventory and without the people in the seats, it's, you know, it's not, it's not meeting your model. So there must have been sort of a, you know, like the, the gun going off at the beginning of the race once you took ownership.

Guest: The gun going off. Yes, but, but a running start, right? I mean, you know, like I said, the plan was crystal clear before, before we signed the documents.

Host: Right.

Guest: So I knew the budget, I knew the players, I knew the structure, I knew the core values, I knew the culture I wanted to build, I knew the resourcing requirements and had the order ready to go and had the factory that we were going to order from locked up and confirmed that we were able to source from there. Especially again, September of last year. Everything was up in the air. Can you even ship your goods where you need to get them from? We had done an awful lot of diligence around that and really understood exactly what our plan was once we signed the doc.

[36:10] Host: So you were able to get in touch with the manufacturer before closing as part of diligence?

Guest: As part of diligence, yeah. I confirmed the factory knew exactly where the products were being made, knew that they were being made with the right certifications and so forth, which is super important as well.

Host: I want to shift a little bit just to the state of the market and other buyers out there looking at. Looking at or interested in E commerce. You hear a ton about how multiples are really high for E commerce. E commerce companies have become very expensive. Did you say that to yourself or experience that? Can you comment on that one way or another?

Guest: Yeah. So I sort of ignore all of the trends. It's true. Right. Certainly when I was in M and A, I mean, oh, the market's really frothy right now or well, it's really dry. I'm going to. There's not a lot of activity. I find most of that to be noise. If you find the right opportunity, you can make it happen. And if it's a fair value for everyone and a good structure for everyone, you can make it happen. So I never paid too much attention to that because again, that's part of the sort of the, I think the old school Sandhill Road mentality of we're in control, we're going to tell everyone what's happening and the way the market is. Who the hell. I mean, I'm sorry, I don't buy into that hype. I think a lot of it is just ego. And certainly there's a lot of people who have been very successful on Silicon Valley in the VC front. But again, I just find it to be overinflated. And again, the world is changing so fast. I mean, the fact that you can find a business for sale on a marketplace was just unheard of even a few years ago. And so the fact that the world has changed that way and then the fact that, that the talent, you know, back to their previous question that you know, how to source talent has completely changed. You know, you can hire anybody from anywhere now. It's amazing, you know, the productivity because of that. And so, yeah, right. Oh well, we have to be in New York so we can get the Talent? No, not at all. I'm in my barn. I'm, I'm an hour outside of Philly. I'm nowhere as far as typical market or where you would expect. Oh, wow. This, you know, fast growing and profitable startup, like it can be anywhere now. It's amazing. So take advantage of that, right?

Host: Yeah.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: Well, it sounds like you really. Part of the reason that you've been so successful since the acquisition is because of how thoroughly you plan for things and how thorough your diligence was. And again, I mean, you had some experience doing that. What did you perceive as the biggest risks, like the points of failure you, you thought you really needed to cover your butt with? And actually then once you took ownership of the business, did you find anything that you'd overlooked, like what was missing from your diligence or what could you have been stronger in?

Guest: Yeah, I would say that the biggest risk was just. And I remember talking to Jim about this is, look, we vetted this as well as we possibly can. At this point, we feel very comfortable with it. The risk is the unit unknown. Unknowns, you know, just, you don't know what you don't know. And so is there something around the corner that's going to change the market? Is there some competitor out there that's about to launch, you know, any of those things? But that's just business, you know. And so we got very comfortable with the fact that, you know, we had done a lot of diligence, felt very good about it, and really had figured out and knew everything we could know going in.

[39:35] Host: Right.

Guest: So that was very important.

Host: Important.

Guest: I would say the second part of your question, what do I wish I knew or what did I now know that I didn't know then?

Host: The unknown unknowns.

Guest: Yeah, the whole world just became aware of, hey, wow, it's really tough to ship goods around the world. What do you know? And so we just all took that for granted. Even retailers, I mean, you could get it, you could order, you could get it. That all changed, right? The just the way that all of these shipping companies operate is just, you know, it's bananas. I mean, the north, the normal processes, the normal prices, the reliability, the communication, you know, all of that has changed. And so, you know, all you can do at this point and we have successfully, is find a good partner and lean on them. You know, be very clear about what you need need and make sure you're getting it. So that's true of our logistics shipping company which is bringing product from all over the world. It's True of our warehouse, our three PL. We switch three PLs. Our third party logistics provider, the actual warehouse fulfillment. I dealt with a lot of 3pls in the past. Again, that whole world has changed. And so we switched to a new 3PL because I was convinced that they would do a much better job and give us more scale than the one that sort of came with the business. So it's a matter of just really diving in. And I look at anything as just an issue. Whatever it is, it's an issue. And issues can be solved. And so you sort of take the emotion out of it. And of course the issues that you think are world ending usually aren't. And so you just sort of work, work the issue. And again, having the right people to be able to help you with that. Like my supply chain guy, who's absolutely terrific. He was critical in the early days of figuring that out.

Host: So supply chain has been kind of the weak point or the risky area since you acquired.

Guest: Challenging. We figured it out and we have goods. We're in stock, we're staying in stock. I just placed another reorder just before this meeting. And so all of that's happening. It's just more challenging. It takes more work than I probably expected ahead of time.

Host: But demand in terms of people wanting the product now that you have it back in stock or now have for a year. Terrific.

[42:06] Guest: Yeah, amazing. We started with pre orders because I just wanted to kind of test the market and see what was out there. And we were sort of blown away. Wow, okay, this is real. And that was fun. And then we fulfilled in a big wave.

Host: And then.

Guest: And okay, now are they going to want more? How big is this market? And month over month, we've just been growing like crazy. So that's a good place to be. It doesn't show any signs of slowing down. We have some new products coming out actually in two weeks. And so keeping a steady supply of new innovative products is really important. The partnerships with the different people in the space, the major players in the space, super important. So, yeah, now we have a strong track record and growing like crazy.

Host: Can you give me any sense of what sales have done starting from absolute

Guest: zero,

Host: what your monthly sales look like?

Guest: Yeah, so we are at about 25% growth rate month over month since April, which is terrific. Month over month. Most companies would kill for that on a yearly basis.

Host: Exactly.

Guest: And it's because honestly, we could have grown faster. But again, back to that plan and knowing how to efficiently deploy capital, I can go buy Google and Facebook ads. All day and we can grow like this. But, but making sure, back to your point about what is the cost of business, really understanding those costs, making sure that our marketing is efficient and we're not paying more for a customer than we're making on the product, for example, which lots of people have done. Lots of startups do that. It makes me crazy. I don't understand that model. I guess when you have unlimited funds you think you can get away with that, but it never made sense to me. Maybe a little old school companies should be profitable. It's a crazy idea. But you know, so, so ramping efficiently, really using the capital, you know, the right way, balancing inventory and marketing, exploring new marketing channels, constantly testing. I have a person who only focuses on ads and we have daily discussions about where we are, the results we're getting, the cost of acquisition, roas, all of the typical, you know, e commerce kinds of, of KPIs and so forth. And you know, because we're creating a business for the long term, we're not just trying to have a great six months of sales and then who the hell cares? Yeah, yeah.

Host: In terms of your ads, are you feeling the Facebook changes that affected iOS

Guest: mostly in the report?

Host: Excuse me, iOS changes that affected Facebook, I should say.

Guest: Yeah. I mean it, it was never easy, but now it seems like it was so easy. You can look at your results and you could see how many people clicked and how many purchased from your ads. It used to be so simple. And of course all of that attribution has changed. So honestly, I read the tea leaves now and we can see what Facebook is saying, we can say what Google Analytics is saying, we can say what Shopify is saying. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I find it to be a wonderful challenge. I just either love or hate this stuff, right? And I love it because it's a constant challenge to figure out what is the right creative, what is the right marketing message, what are the right sales channels, what is the right combination of those. Sure. And now we're advertising on TikTok. There's always something new and I have 100 more ideas that will roll out in a logical sequence so that we continue to just operate more and more efficiently. Return on ad spend improves, not just the top line revenue.

[46:07] Host: Speaking of the future, then what are your plans? Obviously it's just to grow. So let me ask you more specifically your projections. If you're growing 25% month over month, where do you think you can get to with this business in terms of revenue? Revenue in terms of revenue, first of all, where are you now? Are you above or below, say 50 grand a month? $50,000 in sales a month?

Guest: Oh, we're above 50, yeah, we're about 50 grand a month in sales for sure, and growing very fast. So I mean, look, this is a couple million dollar business in the very near term, right? And I credit that to, you know, the quality of the products, the design that's gone into it, our marketing approach and just the growth of the sport, right. It's just, it's taken off and everybody in disc golf is doing well. So it's, you know, it's good to jump on that train and so, but I do have, you know, a 10 year, a three year or one year plan with very specific goals and you know, to enter the sport with a known brand that was, you know, had great reputation and now to have the operational footing to operate efficiently and profitability, profitably. You know, of course our goal, if we're not already, is to be the number one bag in disc golf, which is a very specific niche business. Right. But it doesn't matter. I mean, if you're successful, that's where you're at, you know, and so disc golf bags for sure is the base. But then there's a number of other product extensions, line extensions that we can do that we're very excited about and that are coming and then, you know, just sticking to our core values. I mean, they're very, very important that we stick to that. That's how you create a brand over time. Play different is our first core value. And it's really all about innovation and experimentation and learning. Right. So to not just do what everybody else does, to really innovate about the product. And again, John had done that from the very beginning and that certainly is continuing with the new company and so feel very good about the growth, feel like it's very sustainable. Jim is a very savvy, mature business executive who understands how to really build a company. He's not an operator like me, but he really understands business. And so important that we're on the same page about what the goals and what success looks like.

[48:39] Host: Like Martin, you mentioned how when we talked about how much basically resources you were going to put toward the business only after acquisition, hiring the people and so on, and how as a consultant you saw many of your clients or entrepreneurial clients make that mistake where they really didn't understand the total cost of the business post launch or post acquisition. So obviously one of your pieces of advice to people would be don't just look at the number to buy the business, but what's it going to take to take that business you've acquired, you know, and make it a success. Any other pieces, any other general pieces of advice that come to mind?

Guest: Yeah, you know, one of the questions and actually have it reserved on my calendar for an hour every day is as co owner and CEO, I ask myself the question on a daily basis what can only I do. And I do that because it really helps guide my thinking. Right. With any business I can dive into all the details of any of this. I mean, I know the stuck inside now. I can create Facebook ads, I can do all the nitty gritty. But I really ask myself that question for two reasons. One, to make sure that I'm leveraging my team and growing their skills and leveraging their knowledge and their experience. Super important. And then there are, as owner and CEO, there are many things that really only I can do. You know, forge a new strategic partnership, think about the next, you know, you know, product line and how that fits into the market. Explore, you know, and understand competitors. You know, there are many, many things that really only I can do in this role because it's my role, you know, and so taking that seriously, I see so many founders, you know, get caught up in all of the day to day stuff that they just lose track of really where the business is, what the growth trajectory should look like and how to get there. The big pieces that they have to manage and move in order to have a sustainable, healthy, successful company. The shiny object is a killer for so many.

Host: Well, and also the unwillingness or inability to delegate. Well, a lot of Philly, it's not

Guest: respecting the people on your team. I mean, you hired them for a reason. Let them do the job. Hold them accountable, but let them do the job.

[51:03] Host: This is great, Martin. Where can people reach out to you? Maybe people looking to buy a business, looking to buy a business on Flippa. You'd be an amazing resource. How can they find you?

Guest: Oh, sure, yeah. So, you know, email's the easiest. I'm just. Martinpperparkdiscgolf.com Great.

Host: Okay, well, thank you.

Guest: I'll get a lot of free advice over the years. I'm happy to help people.

Host: Excellent. Well, it's a so far, a year and a day into the acquisition, it looks like it's a big success. Don't want to jinx anything, but you really seem like you know what you're doing and it's based on years of experience helping other entrepreneurs working at qvc. So this seems like a natural next step for you, but it's an awesome story so far, so look forward to to to w. Continuing to watch how it goes.

Guest: Thanks, Will. We're having an awful lot of fun and and yeah, really, really excited about the future.

Host: Good deal. Thanks, Martin.