Host: If you look at the Acquiring Minds website, you'll see the photos of all my guests. Scroll through the past few dozen episodes and it becomes clear that many acquisition entrepreneurs fit a certain profile. American white guys in their 20s, 30s and 40s. But today's guest, Anne Ristick, does not want people who don't fit that profile to be put off from buying a business. Says Ann. Buying a business is not just a young man's game and she is exhibit A. Ann is a woman, Canadian and 60. After a 35 year career as the co managing partner of a prestigious law firm in Toronto, Anne realized that she still had a lot. She wanted to do something to channel her talents, years of experience and energy into and buying a small business is what she chose. Please enjoy hearing how Ann Ristick started a new chapter of her career by acquiring Agency Employment services. Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses. My name is Will Smith. Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs and on this podcast I talk to the people who do it. August Felker is a two time successful searcher, first with a traditional search fund. The second time around he did a self. Today August runs Oberle Risk Strategies, an insurance firm with a dedicated practice group for searchers and acquisition entrepreneurs like you. If you've got a business under loi, Oberle will provide complimentary due diligence on that business's insurance and benefits program. A great no risk way to get to know August and team. They love helping searchers. They've worked with hundreds over. Oberle is a specialty insurance brokerage for searchers by a former searcher. Check out oberle-risk.com O B E R L E- risk.com link in the show notes Ann Ristick. Thank you for joining me today on Acquiring Minds. Really looking forward to this.

Guest: Well it's great to be here Will. I'm a huge fan of your podcast. It's been a great learning resource for me.

Host: Thank you, I appreciate that. And you are the new owner of Agency Employment Services which provides HR services, staffing, compliance, PEO. We'll get into more of what AES does later, but you bought this business at 60 years young after a decades long career as a Managing partner of an illustrious Canadian law firm that you helped build. So I want to start with the obvious question which I'm sure you got from all your friends and family and colleagues. Why and are you buying a business? Or did you buy a business instead of anything else like riding off into the sunset of an early retirement that you really seem to have earned.

[3:07] Guest: Well, it is a great question, Will, and one that as you say, everyone has, has asked me. So. So I guess I was not ready to retire. I mean, I feel like I love what I do. I work really hard. I'm not saying I'll never retire, but I do feel like I love the challenge of work. And I wanted to keep growing and I wanted to make a change for myself. So I had, as you said, I had been actually at Dyke Minnelli at my law firm for my entire career right out of law school and you know, the last 20 years in this co managing partner role in the Toronto office. But you know, I had done a bunch of different things in the firm. I started out as a practicing lawyer, as a corporate M and a lawyer. Then I moved into, my first foray into management was sort of as a, in the talent recruitment space because we were really trying to revamp and you know, upgrade what we were doing in recruitment to grow the firm. And then that kind of naturally led to the co managing partner role. And you know, I loved that job. I loved what I was doing. I would say the part I really loved was the growth journey. I feel like I really excel in that stage of guiding an organization through growth. And my, you know, when I start it is of course I'm biased. It is a fantastic leading Canadian law firm. You know, when I joined it, it was in Toronto, which is my city. It was a relative newcomer to the Toronto market and pretty small. So know when I joined There were 45 lawyers. We're now like they are now 250ish and you know, lots of growth. But I would say for the past five years or maybe more, my management role was not so much about growth. I mean the firm is still growing, still doing really well. But you know, I was doing more consolidating what we have, you know, building on, you know, existing initiatives but not that really ambitious growth phase that I enjoyed. So, so I felt, you know, as I, you know, when I was in my 50s, that I still had a lot of Runway left. I loved growing something. I didn't have the idea of what that was going to be, but I started to think about what would I do for my phase.

[6:01] Host: Okay, great. So. So you wanted to grow something, you didn't know exactly what, but so, but you, you thought business or not necessarily it could have been, I mean there's any number of things out there to grow a non profit, be, I don't know, a school, I mean all sorts of things. So tell us how that itch to grow something, you know, how you, how you went from there to much more specifically buying a business.

Guest: Yeah, so, so it's a good point. And I did think about, you know, when there's public service, like government.

Host: Exactly.

Guest: For me, I felt like, okay, business. I do know that the business world in particular. I'll talk about this in a minute. But the kind of service business I felt a lot of comfort with. So I thought, okay, how I'm really good. You know, I wanted a nice balance of new learning, new growth, but also where I feel like I could really have an impact and add a lot of value. And so I was thinking something in the, in the business world. I did start out thinking, you know, maybe I would start my own business, something advisory, you know, consulting, where I would start small and grow up from scratch. So I kind of did a lot of thinking around that. When I sort of told my network and in particularly my partners at the law firm, which I did about a year ahead of when I was planning to finish up, you know, lots of people came to me with ideas of kind of other larger organizations where you could do something. You know, you get calls from headhunters, although they do tend to pigeonhole you into what you've already done. But so there was a range of things that I was thinking about, but I think what kind of crystallized my thinking around actually buying a small business. I think there were three things. The first is one of early in 2021. One of my now former partners at the law firm Mario Negro is a very well connected, very established practice in the, in private equity. Mid market, lower mid market. He's got the full, full spectrum. He was doing work with some search funds. And after the partners meeting, where I announced to my partners kind of what my plan was in the whole succession plan and so on, he called me right after that and he had lots of ideas for me. But he said, like Ann, you should buy your own business. You would be great at it. Here's kind of, you know, what you should do. And I kind of poo pooed it at first, not to him, but in my own mind because I felt like, you know, it's risky. Could I afford it and would I be putting all my retirement savings at risk? All of that. I just felt like, you know, that would be something that a really gutsy person, not a former lawyer, not a, not a risk averse former lawyer. Yeah.

[9:15] Host: Did you, did you know the model of that, you know, 10 or 20% down and then paying for the the loan that you used to acquire the business out of the profits of the business. Were you yet familiar with that?

Guest: Well, not in this context. I mean, I was from being a, you know, in my old life and in the law firm, lots of that's, you know, the private equity or, you know, acquisition model. But I didn't really apply it to my own, to my own situation, but I did, you know, it was in the back of my mind. And so then the second thing that happened was that Amazon recommended Walter Deibel's book to me out of the blue, and it said you might enjoy. And I listened to it actually, because I like. And then I thought it was so great that I bought it. And again, like my conversation with Mario, it kind of demystified it. I felt like, well, I could do this maybe. So sorry. Mario did. We had a couple of conversations because he kept coming back to me saying, ann, have you thought about this idea? And he sent me some, you know, different opportunities and he. But you know, the, the big thing

Host: he did for me, he was sending you leads. And did you, did you realize how precious those were?

Guest: I know, I know. I feel, you know what, I feel so lucky because listening to, listening to other people in your podcast talk, and I kind of think the search part is really hard. And I had some. I think maybe one thing though, possibly about being an older person and having a big professional network that you've worked with over the years is that there might be more of those kinds of leads that I might get than I would have if I had been a 35 year old saying, oh, I think this is something that I could do. I mean, I do think I had to establish my bona fides in a different way that you alluded to earlier. Like, no, I'm not. I am serious about doing this and I want to work hard on it. I'm not just looking for a little, you know, sideline project. So I did have to do, but I feel like I did have through my long years at the law firm and in the business community here in Toronto have some different connections?

Host: So people, your competence spoke for itself or preceded you, but people were a little bit suspicious of your actual motivation. Do you. Can somebody of your. Of your station really want to do this? And you had to convince them.

Guest: Right? Right.

Host: Okay. So, Mario, I just have to point out we all have the anecdote where we were having a conversation with somebody and then the Internet starts advertising that thing to us. So usually it's just totally creepy and not life changing, but in your case, I guess it still was creepy, but it was positive and life changing. That low after this conversation with Mario Walker's book pops right up. Unbelievable. Alexa's listening to us all.

[12:20] Guest: Maybe. Or it might have been that. I mean I do think I was looking for because I'm a big reader. That's how I learn a lot. And I think I might have looked at some books on business valuation and that kind of thing. So then, and I had earlier, like when I was thinking about starting my. I read the Lean startup and I ordered that on Amazon. So maybe they were putting all those things together and saying she would like buy then build. But I just, it was a, that was a bit of an epiphany. Like I felt like this is, this is doable.

Host: Well, epiphany, light bulb moment, whatever, whatever cliche is just used here time and time again because we all seem to go through it. No one realizes how it's possible. And then they either read Buy then build or hear about it some other way. And it's like, wow, this is, this is possible. I mean, when I got so excited when my light bulb happened, light bulb moment happened that I started a whole podcast around it. So I get it. Go ahead.

Guest: That's good. Well, so the third thing, and probably the key, the most important thing and the biggest stroke of luck that you'll say okay, that was really, really lucky is that I met Jeremy Yu, who is now my search partner and co investor in in AES and Jeremy,

Host: wouldn't it be great to have experts at your back when buying a business? People to help you polish up your pitch and processes as you go to market as a searcher, then help you evaluate opportunities once you get some deal flow. Such experts exist buy side advisors, but they'll cost you to the tune of tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars. But another option exists, the Acquisition Lab. The lab is a do it with you buy side advisory service, not do it for you. Founded by Walker Deibel, author of Buy Then Build, the Lab represents Walker's vision for what is most needed to make a searcher successful and available at an accessible price. It's cohort based and you will come out the other side of your cohort prepared to go to market as a savvy searcher with a tight message and process so brokers take you seriously. Pre approved for a loan and with an entire community at your disposal to help you along the journey to buying a business. To learn more, check out acquisitionlab.com link in the show notes

Guest: so again, connected to Mario. Jeremy is so sorry. Before all of, all of this, I did not, I mean I hadn't read the Stanford model. I didn't, I wasn't. All the stuff that you guys talk on your podcast, like, I was not thinking of myself as a searcher, I mean a broader searcher after new opportunities, but I didn't think of myself as this thing. And, and, but Jeremy is in the bullseye of that, you know, search model and he was, he has a search fund. He was out, out of Vancouver Succession Capital and he had been a self funded searcher for, for I think a couple of years and had really developed a great network, done all the search, all the really hard parts. He was well down the road to acquiring a different company which he has now acquired and he's running. He, his, his lawyer was my partner. Mario. Mario, yes. And this opportunity to, you know, put in an LOI for, for AES came to Jeremy's attention through his professional search network and he was like, oh, I'd love to do this talking to Mario, but you know, I've got my hands full. And Mario was like, well, you know, you should, you should meet my partner Ann. And so I think Jeremy was a little bit of what you said, like, does she really want to do this? But we met at Matt virtually as everything happens now, and we really hit it off, hit it off. Personally he's a great guy. But also professionally, like, I feel like we have really complimentary skill sets and we kind of thought about how we would share this process from here with him kind of having done all the heavy lifting in terms of the search and the kind of the traditional search stuff and me kind of taking the lead on the kind of due diligence, the acquisition piece and then operating, operating the business. But again, for me, so lucky because Jeremy was like a few months ahead of me in the process with this other business and plus he was very well versed in all this stuff. So I was, you know, I, he, I was like, you know, well what does your like tell me about your, how do you, what's your financial model look like or how do you do like that you're commercial due diligence memo. What like what's in it? And you know, he, he, he shared that with me. So that, and he, you know, gave me lots of feedback like that is not like we don't never talk about like that's not a search fund thing, but here, this, you know, you want to talk more about this. And so that was super helpful. For me.

[17:46] Host: So, so let me, let me understand. So Jeremy was doing a self funded search. He had investors and he'd been at it for a couple of years. He was, he was pretty experienced, had been earning his stripes, but still hadn't yet bought a business. But he was down the road on now buying a business when AES came across his desk. He really liked it, but he was already down the road on this other business. So he through Mario gives it to you and so it's just so, so he proceeds with buying that other business but he also gets involved in your acquisition in deal as it sounds like he's kind of advising you but also I assume he takes an equity piece. So now he's also an equity owner. But you also have equity. You're also an equity owner. Yes. So you're co equity owners and I assume there's also third party investors, maybe Jeremy's own investors who are also in the AES acquisition deal. Is that all right? Okay. Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting that a guy doing a search, Jeremy doing a search would buy his own business but also then become basically an investor, an advisor in another searcher before he's even done his first deal. So now he's a searcher and successful acquirer and an advisor and investor in your deal.

[19:01] Guest: Well, maybe it probably seems, maybe seems different to you. To me I feel like that's like on a smaller scale maybe that's kind of like the private equity model. Like you have a fund and you have investors and you buy one business and you keep your eyes open for other businesses and you kind of develop a portfolio of, of companies. And kind of when I thought, you know, I just, because I know that model, you know, I always, when I kind of learned about the search model, I felt like okay, that is that same model except it's smaller and you're only buying one business. I feel like Jeremy is, you know his, his model was, was to, to. To buy more than one, more than one business opportunistically. But, but it's not, it does seem kind of like a, it may be his own growth strategy.

Host: Yeah. And talk to me a little bit about you. If you, whatever you can share about like your financial picture or financially what you envisioned like of your own money or investors and size of business and all that stuff. Because I assume somebody who's been a successful managing partner at a law firm probably has a little bit more in her savings account than people who are just fresh out of an MBA program or even doing this mid career. So Just yeah, paint a picture for me.

Guest: So I was so again that come back to kind of my, my first discussion or second discussion with, with, with Mario in terms of businesses, you know, my thought was a business of 1 to 2 million, 1 to 3 million maybe in Ebitda would be kind of the target range and kind of how we, you know, how he kind of talked me through, how that, how something like that would work. So like these are just broad brush numbers. These aren't our real numbers, but just to give you a flavor. So like if you said 1 million in EBITDA, Mario's like, so say your, your, your multiple is like 3 to 5. So let's call that 4. So your purchase price is 4 million. In Canada, you know, we don't have the SBA loans. But you know, he was saying the get a bank loan given, you know, all the right pieces in place, you could get a bank loan for kind of two to three times EBITDA. So say you get 2.5 from the bank. That leaves you with 1.5 million. If your purchase price was 4 million that you need to raise otherwise from you might get a vendor take back for half, up to half of that. So say that's 500. So you're raising a vendor take back

[22:01] Host: meaning a seller note, seller financing a seller note.

Guest: Yes, yes, yes, go ahead. And so kind of a million, if my math, my mental math is, is right like a million in, in equity that, you know, this is Mario talking to me that you would put in or you know, you would like to 10 people in your world who know you and know what you can do, giving you a hundred thousand, like that would be, that would be a way that you could, could, could do it. And I felt like, and you know, or all or any portion of that, you know, you, friends and family or whatever yourself or however you want it, do it. So, so, so that's how I felt like that, that again that seemed doable to me. Like, and I hadn't thought before, I was like would I even be able to get a bank loan? Or you know, how does you know where does it. Who are the, you know, where do you find investors? But then when I started bringing it into my own backyard, I thought I could. Okay, yeah, that, that, that makes sense. So that was kind of the ballpark that I was thinking of in terms of numbers and you know, Jeremy's when I guess when he and Mario were talking about the AES opportunity, Mario kind of thought, well that's in that ballpark that Ann And I were talking about too. So, so that's.

Host: So he thought how I.

Guest: That was my analysis. Yeah.

Host: And so the. That's another. Raising money from friends and family or colleagues or professional network is another advantage that somebody who's more established like you has over, you know, a 25 or 35 or 40 year old who, who don't have as much credibility and as wide a professional network. Did you anticipate that you would that call it million bucks in equity. Did you anticipate that you would raise all of that or a piece of that or, or, or. I mean, did you work with investors? We know that you did, but did you plan on doing it so well.

[24:08] Guest: So my, my. Again, I'm gonna say before Jeremy and poster. Before Jeremy, I was like, I had my, you know, and I, I did have a plan for reaching out to my network and some of them had reached out to me or when I was talking about doing this, they were like, well, let me know because, you know, I'm, I'm interested. But, but here, here's something that I think is. Would be of interest to your. Yeah. To your listeners that really. I didn't need to do that because Jeremy had. And he is a younger person than me, not that that's hard, but you know, kind of an early career person. He has, you know, he has a great network within the, the, the search and small business community. And he had through his search built up a lot of credibility with different investors. And so he raised most of it actually. Like, I didn't real. I did had to have a couple of. Of of of my connections, but I did that. I did not have to do the, the heavy lifting there. But I re. I mentioned it only because it. Before I met Jeremy. It did give me confidence that I would be able to. To. To do that. Just kind of thinking through my own professional network of people just that I had worked with over the years.

Host: Yeah. Great. And for. Let's just revisit really quickly the bank loan piece because we are so spoiled in the US with the sba. So what does it roughly look like in Canada? You said so like if it's a forex business, 2.5x might come from. Might come. You might be able to get a bank loan for that. So what is 2.5 over 4? That's what, 60%. So. So you. Is that the thinking that you get six.

Guest: I mean the way roughly, you know they have. Did there's. They have different thresholds, of course. And. But I feel like I was looking at it or you know, thinking about it from two perspectives. One is you know, debt to EBITDA ratio. So that was kind of that, that's you know, could be three would be good. It's you know, maybe under a bit under three is it again it depends on their as you know their credit analysis of, of the business and and, and so on what they would give you there. So that was kind of the, the statistic that we were kind of that I had in my mind there.

Host: And are banks familiar with this kind of the search phenomenon in Canada or is there like a go to bank or two where they do all the search or business sort of thing?

[27:10] Guest: I think more the latter than the former. Like anything it's probably maybe even less the bank than the like everything than the human being at the bank. And again I keep saying this here's where I was very lucky with both Mario and Jeremy that they had like they knew who they were able to refer me to the human being at the these two banks. And same thing with my quality of earnings report. I was like who would do this for me? They had like here are some people that we've that kind of know this space. They know the. And that part was really, really good.

Host: Okay, AES. So tell us about AES. Tell us what you can about the size both in terms of, you know, employees but also whatever financials you can share. So start there and then tell us what you liked about. And Jeremy, I mean it. Jeremy liked it too. What you both saw in this business.

Guest: So it's just in terms of size just to give you a flavor. So 15 employees and three 15, 15 and three offices in you know, sort of smaller city centers just west of Toronto. So commuting. I'm in Toronto, two of the three are commuting distance. For me I'm not. I used to ride my bike to work and now I'm doing lots of highway driving. So but that is giving me lots of opportunity to listen to your podcast.

Host: Well, more traffic.

Guest: It's the perfect length. So and so we, we mentioned this at the outset but we're sort of in HR services, PEO services, staffing, outsourcing business. So our clients are, it's a, it's a, it's a real mix. But our clients are some are sort of small and mid sized businesses, local businesses in the Toronto area or west of Toronto that you know, don't have the resources to have a full time HR person or that employment expertise and so on. So for many of these clients they kind of Outsource the employment relationship to us. So we are the employer of record. We do the payroll, the government remittances, that stuff. That all sounds very boring to people who aren't lawyers. You know, benefit provide benefits and benefits administration. So the kind of the, the very baseline hr, you know, services that a small business might not have or be able to have someone full time to do as part of that. For many of these clients we also do temporary staffing. So and it's really interesting. The temporary staffing market is as I'm learning there's kind of general labor and kind of, you know, Ontario is, that is, you know, there's lots of manufacturing and auto food processing, that kind of thing in this region. There's also a whole sort of IT knowledge worker workforce both around Toronto and the University of Waterloo which is where BlackBerry started. And it's a, you know, it's a great. So the Kitchener Waterloo area and Google's there like there's a bunch of knowledge workers there. And so we have clients that use temporary staffing for general labor but also who are working with, you know, what I think of as gig economy workers, IT service provider who are working, you know, as con, as contractors or. So that is a, that's kind of a supplement. Supplement to the broader service offering but something that is that we do a lot of.

[31:29] Host: And as I recall from our pre call actually the business started in staffing and temp. Temp staffing and the HR services and PEO services have actually been a later addition to that. And that's where you see a lot of the growth and where it kind of, I think where you'll really focus and position the business. But that's actually a newer piece of the business.

Guest: Yeah, I mean I think it kind of the company started doing temporary staffing and then as part of that you would employ the company would employ the temporary staff. And so then that seemed like a natural addition. I would say the other client segment that I feel like there's lots of opportunity for growth in is not local businesses, but cross border particularly US businesses that have a presence in Canada but not a maybe Canadian legal entity or not like enough of a presence that they have you know, a full time HR step but they need to manage their Canadian workforce. And so some of our clients have found us through, that have come in through that door that you know, they need some, some help with their contracting or payrolling or whatever. So not small businesses, large established businesses where we're working with the, you know, is it the HR person or the CFO kind of off offshore to make sure that things are set up properly in Canada.

[33:04] Host: And, and you say, I mean you're obviously learning the industry. There's, you're involved in that now when you were evaluating the opportunity of AES, did you, how, how deeply did you research the industry so that, you know, there's a spectrum. Often people who come into search who acquisition entrepreneurs who come from private equity backgrounds, for example, you know, they're, they're so, well, they're so experienced in doing real hardcore industry research. Growth prospects. I mean that's, that's obvious but much more nuanced than that. And then there and then probably more people who are not as sophisticated as that. I certainly put myself in that bucke who want to know, you know, yeah, it feels like, you know, the world is becoming more mobile, therefore, you know, X so very loose kind of sense of, of, of where and why an industry might be growing or not. Where do you fall on that spectrum? And yeah. How much analysis, analysis did you do of what you thought the kind of macro prospects were for this industry that AES plays in?

Guest: So that's a great question. So. And I would say I'm both of those people. So I think my lawyerly side is you need to do a lot of research and you need to have a really, really good memo. Written materials, analysis, numbers, but not just numbers to, to, to give you confidence to, to, to move ahead. But I would say I'm, you know, more I, that was to test my hypothesis that this would be a good business. And I, if I think about, you know, where, how I actually lean it was, you know, I'm probably more like. This seems, you know, I have a good. Sorry, this sounds bad. I have a good feeling about this business. Like it's, it. There's lots of, lots of opera just based on what I see and my own judgment and kind of what I've experienced in my, you know, world of dealing with people and hiring and legal employment issues. Like I think there are lots of opportunities. So I probably came to it kind of thinking I'm interested in this business for this reason and then I'm going to do the due diligence and the analysis and produce a big, huge long memo with all kinds of detail in it to make myself comfortable as well as my investors comfortable that I'm not just doing this on a, on a whim, but kind of that when you buy. But, but when you say like people coming from private equity and that I don't come from there So I have no idea if what I did was, you know, I had, I do have a friend who, who was, you know, read some of my 70 was like that's not very good. Like how did my husband. How did you learn to do it? Did you do all these charts? I was like, yes, I did them myself. So that, so, so I did have a little bit of a, that, that, that. But I mean I would not say in any, by any stretch was I, you know, would I hold myself out as somebody who would have done the analysis that, that.

[36:33] Host: Well, well, you, you shared with me the where you saw potential for growth in this business on our pre call. And I don't know if this comes from your deep sophisticated analysis side or your. Or your gut side or both. So, so elaborate on those if you would.

Guest: So, so kind of number one was kind of the, the sort of baseline human being business that people are in. Every business, every business needs, particularly now, needs help and focus on attracting talent, retaining talent, just that never goes away. And so to me that piece is only growing. So that was number one. Number two is the PEO service offering that's not well known in Canada as it is in the US in the US there are lots of PEO service providers and it's an industry and people are familiar with it. In Canada, certainly those services get outsourced to different pockets of service providers, but there's less, I won't say there's not, but there's less of the kind of PEO as an industry. So kind of we really felt like there's an opportunity to grow there. Looking at the US experience which we in Canada so often do. Oh, they did that. We should be able to copy them. And then the third piece for me was kind of thinking about, you know, I talked about the fact that the HR services that we offer are quite baseline employer compliance, legally focused. But I do have lots of experience and insights, I would say into kind of maybe moving up the food chain in terms of other HR service offerings that are that are that are that an HR person would need or a company that doesn't have an HR person but needs to deal with a difficult employee issue would need. And I feel like we're really well positioned. We are providing some of those services already, but kind of just as kind of as an adjunct to kind of the other services that we're doing. And I think that we could potentially market ourselves with more premium level HR services. So those are three again I'm learning and it's kind of, we're Testing all the hypotheses. And I've been meeting with clients and the team and kind of, you know, getting a. It's still early days, so getting a sense. But those are the, those were probably the three topics that, where we kind of thought that, that there are some really good growth opportunities.

[39:32] Host: Well, durability, you know, is the first box you need to check. And so you have that with people business. So that's great. And then if you can layer growth potential on top of durability, you got nothing but upside. We hope.

Guest: Let's hope. Let's hope. That's right. That's right.

Host: You met the folks at AES and that was a big part of you getting comfortable with the acquisition. Talk to us about that.

Guest: So, yeah, that's a great point, Will, because I, you know, during the time when my colleague Mario was sending me sims for different companies, I just felt like I was in this chicken and egg thing because I would read the sim and it was always persuasive and you know, I was help. Super helpful because, you know, I looked at numbers and kind of, okay, these are the kinds of things that people are looking at and, but I felt like, okay, but it's gonna so much depend on would I. This team that's described in this, would I feel like I could work with this team and would they like to work with me? And I feel like that is just impossible to determine from the page, but yet you can't beat them before you, you know, do the reach out or the letter of intent and whatever. But I, so, so, so I met Jeremy obviously met the sellers during the letter of intent process. I met them shortly after that and I would say they were, I got, you know, again, got a great feeling from them. They were, you know, very practical business people. They were open about the, all the topics that you would want them to be open about. They were very, you know, one of the things that, that really appealed to me was they were one. I think one of the reasons they chose our offer was they felt like we would, they wanted to keep the team intact and not have, you know, felt like we would, we wanted to grow and we would do that. So I felt like that had a good augered well for the, for the culture and the team environment. And then early on in our due diligence process we did a site visit and there are four managers. So there were two owners and then four managers. One thing I think the owners did an excellent job on that I gather doesn't always happen is that they had brought the, the, the managers into the loop on not the rest of the team, but the managers that they were planning to, to do this. And so we met all four of them and they took us, it was, that was super useful. Like each of them separate meetings took us through kind of what they do. And that gave me, you know, I felt like, okay, I'm in my, in my comfort zone here talking about all these processes and how this works and so on. So I felt like these are good people. And it also gave them the chance to ask us like, you know, we said like so we would talk to you like kind of what do you have questions for us? And of course they all were like, well, what's your plan for the business? And our, you know, I think when we were able to say we want to grow and we really want to build and we're interested in your ideas, I felt like that, that gave me. Their eyes seemed to sparkle. I mean you never know if they're just being polite, but they seemed to all of them to find it that good, you know, answer. And so those are all intangibles, Will. And as I would be the first to say, you can always be wrong with your, and you can't trust your instincts and gut too much on these things. But at the same time that's to me is like so important that you have to have, that you need to verify, you need to do a bunch of other stuff. But that to me was a really important piece.

[43:41] Host: You had mentioned that one of the things that made your offer competitive you thought was that you were eager to grow the business and therefore keep on everybody and add to the team. Presumably over time were you competing with other offers on the business?

Guest: I think so. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Host: Okay. Okay. And I, I don't think that you gave us the any financials about the business because you could you share, is there anything you could share there?

Guest: Well, so, so I mentioned that kind of my, my target was kind of 1 to, to 2 in EBITDA. And so we're in that range like for say lower end of that range, but that would be kind of the, the ballpark for us.

Host: Okay, that's great. That's you know, just for, for the self funded searcher, for the kind of non traditional search fund searcher that's, that's just, just above the sweet spot but in a good way like you know, being north of a million, just north of a million or wherever that is. You had said something to me going back to your motivation. I should have got this in earlier, but I want to make sure I do get it in. When RBG passed away, there was you. You looked at her career and said to yourself, what?

Guest: Well, that was kind of my, my. We were talking about being an older person in this, and why are you not kind of just moving on to retirement or slowing down in your, in your nice office that you already have? To me, I felt I had been thinking, as I said, that I wanted to keep working and make an impact, but it was a real catalyst for me when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. And I remember there were all the profiles of her. And I realized that when she went to the US Supreme Court, she was, I don't know, a year, a couple of years older than I was at that point, at that time. And I'm certainly not comparing anything I'm doing to what she did on the US Supreme Court, but I felt like that is so amazing because everything that we know or everything I know about, she had a great career, of course, before she went to the U.S. supreme Court. But the impact that she has and everything that we know about her and the career impact that she had is all post 60. And I felt like that is something that I, I want, I don't want it, you know, And I feel like we should not have this attitude that, okay, well, once you're past 60, you're slowing down and you're winding up, like, you can do that. But, you know, you don't necessarily need to feel like I'm. I'm not relevant anymore, that I don't have something to contribute. And so, so I did take inspiration. I mean, I admire her so much, but I did take inspiration from what she did at my age and felt like, well, I could do that too, not go to the Supreme Court, but do something different.

[46:51] Host: Right, right. But the peak of your career is still well ahead of you, really. I love that observation and that message. We're wrapping up here, Anne, but a couple things I wanted to get in in over particular order. We talked a little bit about. I mentioned Americans. We have the SBA common feature of so many of my guests search in Canada. You don't. Are there any. Is there anything else that you kind of would want to tell or any tips you could share for the Canadians listening? Anything Canada specific, aside from the loan stuff or, or not?

Guest: Well, I'm not sure this would be an interesting insight to anyone other than a lawyer, but our model is much more share purchase as opposed to asset purchase, which is, as you know, more liability and trickier for the purchaser. So that is something that you have to be aware of. Of course I'm sounding loyally different regulatory environment in terms of. But you know, as I think many of your guests have said, you just need good advisors, good lawyer, good accounting firm to help you. But I would say there are nuances in the, in how it works. But I would say the overall model seems very similar and I think that's one of the reasons that our. You invest US Investors. Most of our investors are, you know we have a couple in Canada but most are are in the, in the US and they seemed very comfortable with the, the structure and the economics and, and model. So I think it's quite similar.

[48:48] Host: Great.

Guest: But lots of opportunity in Canada. Like I do think that there's a lot of businesses in the Canadian market that we see lots of interest from private equity firms and acquirers not just in the U.S. but a lot of our business is cross border probably far more than than. Than for you in the US So it is a, it is a, it is a great market for your searches to consider. I think.

Host: Well and kind of the point you made earlier about how PEO is really established here and less so in Canada and you know there's, there's at times a pattern of, of some big thing taking off in the US and and then Canadians looking down and seeing it and, and bringing it to Canada. I wonder if search is. Is if there's a similar pattern there where isn't quite as known yet in Canada. So maybe it's, it's still. Maybe it's less competitive. Maybe it's an even more exciting frontier for a would be Canadian searcher than an American searcher. Do you think?

Guest: I think for sure there it's less, it's less advanced and there are fewer, fewer people doing it in the Canadian market than, than the US market. I think that is, that is right.

Host: And you had mentioned the American investors. I want to make sure that we mentioned Juan who actually introduced us. Juan Ruiz at hbs. Can you tell folks about his investment group?

Guest: So Juan has an investment group of. I believe it's all Harvard Business students, but I think that there are some branches of the similar funds in different business schools called community. So I'll put. You need to kind of spell it out to know it. And I always feel like I'm pronouncing it wrong but essentially a group of student investors who want to invest in search funds. So I was. Jeremy continuing theme Jeremy. Juan was in Jeremy's network and you know when, when I Met Juan and Doug, his colleague. I was, I was super excited. I felt like this is. I love the idea that students again you know this. And that was kind of newer to me that students are so interested in this area and then they, I think you know they were going through our materials with a fine tooth comb and they had quite, you know, they, they were all over the model and so I feel like it was a really. They had lots of questions for me, trust me. And I felt like that was a good. That was a really good learning experience for, for. For both of us. So I think it's just I. We're so excited that they, that they invested in us and I think it's a really good thing for students to get involved in if they're interested.

[51:58] Host: Community. A community. A community. But commune like ETA for the listeners out there and we'll have that in the show notes.

Guest: But yeah the T is capital or the. It's like there's a different. Anyway

Host: and then. And then Jeremy sounds like quite a guy so maybe I'll have to have him on to hear about his. His acquisition and did he buy. Was it in Vancouver, the business that he.

Guest: No, it was not in Vancouver. It was. He was based in Vancouver which. And. But his business is in Manitoba. Portagelo Prairie in Manitoba, which is just north of Minnesota, I believe. Although do not quote me on my US jog. So it's a bit of a different urban center. But I think he's, you know, I think he's really enjoying it so well

Host: and anything that we didn't touch on that you want to make sure folks here are we.

Guest: Well, the only thing that we talked a little bit about at the beginning in our pre call that I wanted to say again is have. I was just so impressed listening to a number of the women that you've had on your. On your podcast. One thing I would say my observation and maybe this is different and can't. And not that I know it but there's far more men in this space than. Than women and you know, I, I would not have had the confidence I think to do what everything that we've just talked about when I was in my 30s and even 40s, particularly when my kids were young and a number of your women have said oh, you know, and then I had a baby and or I had two babies while I was doing this. Like I feel like I just loved that. I feel like, you know, those are. It's a great opportunity. I think that there are lots of the women should. Should not Think, okay, well this is a man's world and you know, I wouldn't do it. I feel like if I, if they could kind of take the demystifying out of it and feel like okay, this is something I could do. Both women and maybe later career people if they're interested. I don't think you need to feel like it's a young man's game. Although I say this a couple of months into it, but that would be, that, that'd be the only thing I'd add to what we've already said.

[54:17] Host: Oh, I'm so, I'm so glad you remembered to bring that up. I wanted to ask you about that. Such a, such a good point. And just a quick plug. We're going to be doing a kind of a panel of women searchers here in the next. We haven't recorded it yet but for the listeners interested in that, stay tuned. In a month or so it'll air but just on that point. And did you find, I mean after 35 years as, as in the world of law, I'm sure you've bumped up against kind of testosterone driven business dynamics a lot. So you were probably, probably used to that. But is, is there anything that you want to comment on about the search and being a woman in it other than you just said like did do you think that it informed the process at all being or was different for you than for others? No. Okay.

Guest: I, I don't think so. I, I mean I think I, I, I'm, I, I, I didn't feel like I wasn't welcome or I didn't that I, people weren't taking me seriously like non. That's another part about being older. Like I think that you know, in my younger days maybe people were like who is she? But I didn't find it sort of male dominated in a bad way that it's all about testosterone. I just noticed that I was, it's been a long time since I've been the only woman on a deal or the only woman in a, one of the, one of our sellers was a woman and not that's, that was really great but other than that it was pretty but, but nothing. I'm not saying that at all in a negative way. It's just who seems to gravitate to this field seems in Canada anyway to be mostly men.

Host: Yeah, for sure. And here as well. For sure. And what a pleasure this has been. Congratulations on AES and I just, I'm really inspired by people who reinvent themselves or take themselves on new adventures when they, when they don't have to or when, you know, they already have so much success. So I think you'll, you'll inspire all of us, men and women alike. How can, what's the best way to reach out to you? If people have questions or if, or if Canadian listeners want any, you know, some names maybe, or some lender names or whatever it might be.

Guest: Yeah, so I'm, I'm on LinkedIn, so my LinkedIn. And also you can reach me on my a work address, which is Ann with an egencyemployment ca and thank you so much.

Host: This is, this is great.

Guest: Thank you, Will. It was a great conversation. I love being on your podcast. Thank you.