Host: Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses. My name is Will Smith. Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs. And on this podcast I talk to the people who do it. My interview today is with Cedric Sigua. I love what Cedric's done. He wanted financial freedom and he decided years ago that acquiring a business would be the way he got there, and he did it. In 2015, he bought a translation agency that was doing a million and a half euros annually. And not only that, he's gone on to acquire 11 more translation agencies. And this year in 2021, he's closing in on 5 million euros in annual revenue, essentially all through acquisition. So that's more than tripling the company in six years through acquisition. This interview is packed with Cedric's tips and philosophy on business acquisition. His story, of course, but one little perspective of his that I'll call out that I thought was cool. He is a, he's French and he lives in Germany and he took a loan from the German government to make his first acquisition. He was just a solo entrepreneur out there. Didn't have much savings, really didn't have much money. And so most of the money came from this loan from the German government. And it was a big sum for him. It was an intimidating prospect. But he realized that the fact that this loan program existed from the German government, it told him that acquiring a business wasn't overly risky or strange. It was something that the German government actually wanted to see entrepreneurs do. They don't want to see small businesses go out of business when the owner retires. They want younger dynamic, a new generation of people to come in and inherit or acquire those businesses and keep them going and hopefully grow them. So it that kind of shift in or that recognition that the government supports this, this path of business, path of entrepreneurship, acquisition, entrepreneurship allowed him to get a little bit more comfortable with the prospect. And of course, here in the US we have a similar program, the very well known sba. And so his perspective shifted mine a little bit on the sba. It can feel awfully lonely out there and daunting to acquire a business, but just remember that there's an entire government, governmental apparatus at your back that really wants you to do this, really wants you to take this path. So maybe that will help alleviate some of the more intimidating moments. Anyway, that and much more from Cedric Seguard. Cedric Seguard, thank you for joining me today on Acquiring Minds.

[3:09] Guest: Thank you for inviting me.

Host: Will you acquired Demand Translations, a translations firm in Germany, in 2015. And at the time that company was doing one and a half million euros annually. You have since acquired another 11 translations agencies and you've grown the company by a factor of three. And this year you might get it to 5 million, maybe 7 million. So you've grown the company revenue rapidly over these last six years. So I want to hear that story. I want to hear the story about the do a deep dive into your first acquisition and then also hear how you've used this strategy of acquisition to grow, grow so quickly. So why don't we just begin with your story, your professional situation before you made that first acquisition and what led you to start looking or wanting to acquire a company in the first place.

Guest: Okay. Okay. Maybe back to my studies. I'm good, I'm French. I studied in the usa. I studied in Germany. So I was actually business studies, very, very international. I started to sell. I was selling footwear, then I was selling safety footwear and I was selling furniture. I was in contact with many distributors and I saw them. I was export manager and had the opportunity to see a lot of different distributors in a lot of different countries. And some of them were very successful. And I was making money for others. I learned to sell and I think I was pretty successful. And I was, I think when I was selling safety footwear, I had a turnover, something 2 million. I did something like 2 million euros additional turnover to the company. And I had my salary and it was not 10% of it. And then the question was, and I think at that time I told me to be successful and to build something for me, for my future, for my retirement, I need to become independent. And then I started to look. We came to Germany about 10 years ago with my family. And at that stage I really started to look into acquisition. I really wanted to be. That was my first goal, to be independent. I had different. I was working at a good job. I was a manager of e learning company in an industrial French learning company. And I learned, actually I used this to learn how to manage people, because I think it's important to manage people, how to understand the balance sheets, how to make a company profitable, how look at these financial aspects. But I was looking, actually I was looking for companies both in France and in Germany. But there were not a lot of platform and there are still not a lot of platform, at least in Germany, where the market is maybe a bit more hidden. And there are two, three platforms. And I was looking, I think every maybe one time a week, I was looking there and looking. And year round I was looking for all type of Companies I wanted to go into B2B. I didn't want to go into B2C because that's not my world. I knew how to sell services to companies, to offer an added value to companies. And that's what I was looking for. And I came into. In 2011, I came into a first company and they were doing forest boots, dirty and niche products, good rentability, only two, three competitors in Europe. But that was too late actually for this company. Once I started to do the business plan to get the financing, another older person came actually and got the deal because he had more capital to take it.

[6:53] Host: This was forest boots. Like safety work boots?

Guest: Yes, safety work boots with a Class 3 for people. Really something very interesting. Rubber boots, very. Something special. Really something special, really interesting. And I'm still in contact with it. Maybe I will take it over. Last week he called me again and said, yeah, I met him every two years in exhibitions and we were in contact last year, last week, last week. And he told me, Now I'm getting 63, I want to sell the company. I said, okay, why not? Why not? It's a good company, it could be a good strategy, a good diversification.

Host: And this is the guy that bought it instead of you in 2011?

Guest: Yes, in 2011. And now it's exactly nine years. He told me, I think today, or it will be nine years that he bought the company. He want to retire. He finished to pay everything. He finished his lbo, he added some value to the company and he want to sell it to retire. So maybe my next baby, we don't know. Back to okay, I didn't got this one. I didn't got this one. I was looking, looking and I found actually in the platform, I found the company of Mr. Demand that was for sale at that time, actually I was just divorced, beginning of 2000, just separated, move with my 14 year old son. So a lot of new challenges. But then I say, okay, I changed everything. Why not taking over a company? And then I contacted Mr. Biman. I told him I don't have the money. He was asking. The asking price was a million euro and I didn't have the money, but.

Host: And you found this company on one of those platforms?

Guest: Yes, one of those platforms. And it was a lot of haircut company and small restaurant and this and that. And one good company, interesting in Dusseldorf, where I live. So it was. Everything was very good. B2B services in Dusseldorf turn over 1.5 million. Because I think it's also important when you want to get independence. That was My strategy, I didn't want to grow something, I wanted to buy something. Because then from day first you have to reimburse. Yes, but you can pay your salary.

Host: So can you talk about that a little more? You didn't want to start something from scratch because there's a period of no revenue when you do that.

[9:08] Guest: Exactly, exactly. And I had at that time, no money. I think I had some 40, 50,000 Euro, whatever. So it was not enough actually to stay maybe one year, two years that I get some revenue. It was never in my mind. I have a very big respect for people creating from scratch starting. I think the risk is very high to fail. But when you take over an existing company, on my opinion, the risk is the financial risk. Of course, you have to take the money, you have to. To get enough, you have to get the loan. Because most of us cannot take that for. Cannot take that directly. But the risk is differently from first, from day first you can pay your salary because it's the salary of the ex owner that's actually, instead of flowing for him, flow for you.

Host: So even, even with a loan, you can pay back the. If the company's profitable enough, you can pay the loan interest down and yourself a salary.

Guest: It depends of course of the valuation of the company. But most of the time, and I know the bank do like this, when they take over, they take the result of the company and they take off. If it's a single company, they take off a salary of 60, 70,000 of the owner to pay you because they know that you cannot work for free. Basically they take it off and you get the loan in the next Germany and France. Most of the time, seven years. So you get seven years to pay it back and you have enough actually to pay you the loan. And that's the reason why I really wanted to buy something and not create something. I'm not the creator. I'm not the creator. I think you need other skills than the one that I have today.

Host: And what were the skills you saw in yourself? Sales. What else?

Guest: Sales management, Negotiation. Because I think you really need to negotiate when. Because translation is nothing else than. Yeah, negotiation. You buy on yourself. So you're the middleman and you need to offer an added value. Because if you don't offer an added value, then you don't have your space. Basically we are this middleman. So you need to negotiate with your translator, select the real, the good translator. It's kind of human resource, not really, but kind of remind you. So selecting good translators, finding new customer offer, selling, not Only selling translation, but selling we represent. You will represent our customer outside. If we have a customer that do a brochure to go to a fair, to an exhibition in Russia, for example, we are not only translate words, we represent him there. We need to speak his language, we need to understand the type of style, the type of words he wants. And we really representing there, that's something that we sell, that we. I really think that we do that by demand. We understand our customer, we select the correct translator for them, and we help them to grow their revenue outside. So of course you need, okay, you need to sell it like way, not only give me a text, I give you a text, but really offer an added value to your customer. And I think that's one of the skills that I have and that I develop, that I learned. Because sales is something that could be intuitive, but you really need to learn and you need to test, to test. Open questions, closed questions. And once you test it, one or two, it works. It works. It really works. You have your plan and it works.

[12:40] Host: Okay, speaking of plan, take us back to 2015. So you identified demand translations. You're talking with Mr. Daman, and the list price is a million euros. So you negotiate with him to get that price down.

Guest: Not really. Not really. Because I really wanted. I really wanted to get independent. I really wanted to get independent. And it was again, it was the chance, the chance of my life. And maybe now I. Maybe I can. Maybe I paid it a bit too much, but whatever. I really wanted to. I really wanted to be independent. And it was the chance. It was a chance to have to build something. So I didn't really negotiate. I told him, I have no money, I need to go to the bank. But through my old. The first project I had was the safety boots. I had the contact with the banks. And I think I dealt my business plan in one weekend and it was only 18 pages. But I did it in one weekend, was full of German mistakes. But I went to the bank and I told them, okay, that's here, that's my business plan, that's where I am. But they knew me already. That's the business why it fits to me, because I am in the sale in the service industry, because it's B2B. Because I really want. And I think the bank give the money based on the person. Actually, if they believe that you can do the job, then you may get the loan.

Host: And even though you didn't have experience as a translator or in the translations industry.

Guest: Exactly. I had no experience and I really Thought at the beginning, when I first saw it, I saw it was really very little industry. I couldn't imagine that it was so big. Actually, the translation industry is in Germany, estimated about 1 billion. And I really never thought, I thought, everybody speak English. Why do we need to translate? It's a bit different. Yeah.

Host: Okay, great. And so this company, Daman and that previous, the Boots company, those were the only two companies that you got serious about?

Guest: Yes, because they were. Both of them were in the turnover about 1 million. All the others were little. I think all the other that could be interesting for me were on the heightened market through brokers and so on. They were on. Not in the open market. They were not in the. In the open market. And again, I think to start to be independent, the goal is not to earn less than what you had before. The goal is actually to earn more because you take a risk. So I really wanted to have a company at least one million, one and a half million euro turnover with good rentability.

[15:17] Host: And by rentability for our American audience, you mean profitability, I think.

Guest: Sorry, Profitability. Good profitability. To build on something. To build on something. You need profitability to pay your loan, to invest. Yes, you really need, and I'm a friend of high profitability, of added value. And I think when you offer added value, you deserve your profitability.

Host: So you were able to, with your 18 page business plan, go to your banker that you already had established a relationship with and get the loan. Can you talk about the terms of the deal with the seller, with Mr. Damond? Did you just pay him outright or was there a seller note? Can you talk about any of that?

Guest: We did, and I know the bank really like this. We did. Seller, seller loan. It was 25% seller loan based on within four years and 75% in the banks. And I know that the bank really like this because it shows that the seller believe that the buyer has possibility, the skills to keep the business running at least, at least four years that they get this money back. And the banks really like this. And for the financing, I know in the US you have the same, but in Germany you have some system where the region helps you, the state help you. The state actually give a guarantee up to 80% to the bank. And in that case it costs you. You pay 1 or 1.5% per year to the state, but they give you 80% guarantee so that the bank only take a risk of 20%. And it helps, actually. It helps, actually. I don't know if we have this in France, but I Know, in Germany, it helps a lot. And you can go up to 1.2 million euro turnover with their own capital of only 75,000 Euro. So it means actually you have a very big leverage offered from the state. So if the state believed in you, then you can get this leverage. So I think for entrepreneurs that want to take something over, don't be afraid about the million or whatever about big money, which is a lot of money, but then the state help you because the population is getting older and they know that if young people don't take those company over, they will disappear with jobs. Because my company had at that time six jobs. If nobody takes the company over, the job disappears. So that's why you have a lot of states helps. And I think in the US even more.

Host: Yeah. And I think that it's like you were saying, many people don't even consider acquisition because they think, oh, I have to have a million dollars or $2 million or $3 million. Only companies and other rich people acquire companies not realizing that you can do exactly what you did, which is get a loan that's underwritten by the government, essentially, and be able to pay down the loan from the profits of the company and, oh, by the way, be earning a salary that might even be better than the salary that you were getting before. So when you acquired demand, were you able to successfully do that? Were you paying yourself more than you'd been earning before?

[18:34] Guest: Yes, yes, I was able to do it. But really in there, I let all the money in the company. And I think it's important also to say, because at some stage, you see, you have a big debt, but money is starting to. You start to get liquidity, you start to get cash on your account. And you see, sometimes the figures are going higher and are going higher and higher. But till today I left everything actually on the. I left everything on the. On the account. And I think it's very important to say it's not my money, it's the money of the company. I have to pay it in 2027, basically eating 2026, whatever happened, I may lose everything. So I think it was my first goal to have more cash than my debt, to feel. To at least have the feeling to be free. Right.

Host: So if all of your clients ran away tomorrow, you still have the cash in the bank where you could pay back the loan.

Guest: Exactly. I could cut very fast. I should have cut very fast, but then I could. It's not true because when it starts going down, then you lose money because you have your employee and so on. But it was my first goal to have at least as much cash so I could pay almost everything back. Almost everything back. So that was the goal. Of course it's a risk actually to take a big loan. But basically if you get 10,000, if you get 10,000 in your minus in your credit card, you can get to private bankrupt. So basically you can get for 10,000, why not getting for a million? Basically the risk is, I think it's. It's a financial.

Host: The penalty is the same if you, if you're in debt $10,000 or a million dollars, the penalty is the same.

Guest: Okay, I will go and I know if it doesn't work, I will be private bankrupt. I will be five years, five years without credit cards, without loan, without doing nothing. But I think it's part of the game, actually. The States help you, guarantee, give you a lot, but you cannot actually, you cannot. No risk, no fun, but you cannot. But you cannot have everything. You need to know that there is a risk. There is a potentially big risk. But if you think that you're. I think that's maybe a tip that I can give. If you think that you're able to do at least as good as the owner, then this risk is calculated. If you think that the owner is much better because it's much more technological or much better with talking with customers, I think that I wouldn't go. And it happened to me in one translation agency. They were much more. And they had very big customer and they were much, much more digitalized. And I think it was at that stage, not the real for me, but in most of the.

[21:19] Host: And so you walked away from that. I walked away.

Guest: I walked away because I thought it was. And again, it was a real. It was a big risk. But in that case, I was afraid that maybe in three years I would say differently because in three years I will have other skills. But that moment in time, it was not for me.

Host: And what did you see going back to the first acquisition with De Man? What did you see that you could do better than Mr. De Mann?

Guest: He was not here, he was living actually north of Germany and he was never at the office. So I was saying, if I am close to my employee, if I'm more close to the customer, and he was not doing so much, he was no more operational. So to be closer to the customer, closer to the employee, I thought that I could do better. I thought I could do at least as good. And actually I think I did even better because I was more fighting, more chasing new customer. Which it was not doing at that time. We went into some tenders and we got a good, very good tender just after I got the company. Since then, we didn't get a lot more, but at least we got this one and we got new.

Host: And by tender you mean an offer for a new client, a proposal to

Guest: work for a new client, estate tender, working for. Working for the state, where it's mostly actually based on price. And I think my employee, we did a mistake in the calculation and basically we were a bit too low. But then actually, I think it's always the same. Instead of getting crazy, we said, okay, we went too low. How do we do to get the margin? And through this, I think we learned also, my employee learned also to see that the price was low, but we found a way actually to buy even better. And we made it at the end. It was a good deal, but we learned actually through this.

Host: Excellent. Well, one of the things you were just saying about the financial risk of acquiring a company, one classic way to mitigate that risk is to acquire a company that has a long history, so that the revenue that it's generating is much more reliable than a young company. Of course, how old was demand translations when you acquired it? And were the customers? Were the customers the clients also old? Had they been with the company for years?

Guest: The company was created from Mr. Demand in 1998, and we had some customer. We had some customer that were. One customer was still the first. Mr. Devon told me it was his first customer was a big international American company, but it was only one department. But yes, we had some stable customer for a long time. But I think in translation, basically you have some customers that are happy, but if they don't, if they decide not to go into a new market, then you got less. For example, Turkey is a country that we are doing a lot three years ago, but now, because of the situation, Russia is a little bit the same, because now the situation is different. Then of course, you have less export, then less demand, then less translations. And that's so you can have customers that say, okay, no, we decided not to go, or customer that are bought over from an American company that, for example, that already has his own translator. And from one day of the other, you lose the customer. They are happy, but they are taking from somebody else that say, no, we don't use demand, we use another company. And then you lose your customer. So I think in the service, you need to always keep the service, give the service, give the good service. We depend on the export. If tomorrow Germany Export much less. And of course we'll suffer and we'll have to find new customer. So it's either you look at the recurring business or you have a sales system. I think it's either or. And if you have both, then you're the king.

[25:21] Host: Okay. Okay. And when you acquired Daman and you had all these ideas and how you could add value where Mr. Daman wasn't, you were going to be in the office, you were going to be local to your employees, you were going to be more sales oriented. So you acquire the business. Was there anything that you learned after you acquired it that you, you know, you discovered a challenge that you hadn't foreseen or you were, you know, you were like, oh my God, you know, I didn't know I was going to have this problem or anything basically negative that occurred after that acquisition.

Guest: I would say no. I would say no.

Host: Really?

Guest: It was clear. I think it was pretty clear. Mr. Deman told me, actually, the situation. We went into the customer. I spoke with his tax accountants. There were no. The customer were there. There were no contract that has been stopped. There were no customer that went away. But we already had. There was already a team of five project managers. And I think that's also important. It's called Intuitu personae in Latin. The goal is to see how dependent is the business to the owner. And I think Deman was. The name was Paul Alexander Deman. The email was pauldeman.com but it was not really depending on the owner because the customer was there. We had the team that we still have. Actually, most of the project managers are still there. They are still young, they are dynamic and they are good and they take care of the customer and they are motivated and they want to develop the business. So basically, if demand, Siguar, whoever, as long as you keep the contact with the customer, that you keep the same strategy, that you keep the same translators, basically you keep. If you want to change, you keep the stability. And that's something that I really look when I do. New ACQUISITION I spoke this morning with another person, another translation agency in France, and they got into big trouble because they bought a company and they didn't really realize that it was related to the owner. And then from one day or the other, they lost 70% of the business because the business was related to the owner. I had this case in one acquisition, but it was actually the numbers were very much lower, but with demand, I don't think I found any. There was no problem.

[27:46] Host: We refer to that as an Absentee owner, somebody who's not, or like an absentee landlord is another use of that phrase where somebody owns the building but they're never there, they're never on site. So in fact, absentee owners can be a great opportunity because if you're going to be a hands on owner and you're going to be physically in the business, you can add so much value just by that.

Guest: It's true, I agree with you and I think that it's important not to be. That was always my goal to say I'm the owner, but I don't want to be operative, I want to give also I have young, young project manager. I think they want. They don't want me to be there to control every detail, to concentrate only on their mistakes. And there, if they need me, they come to me for offers above €3,000. I want that they come to me. But I leave them a lot of. A lot of freedom. I think that's more micromanagement and not micromanagement. And I think the older we're more into. Into micro and look everything and who is buying the pen and what did you do? No, I think I leave them a lot of freedom and they appreciate it and they are more responsible and they feel more involved with the company and I can actually. And I can concentrate. I think at one stage it's always important not to work in the business, but on the business and it's important to leave them there.

Host: Well, I think that's a perfect segue because I think only with that sort of macro management approach could you make as many acquisitions as successfully as you have. If you were going to really micromanage each of these 11 acquisitions or 12 acquisitions, it just wouldn't scale. So tell us about the acquisitions. When you acquired the first company, Demant, did you anticipate growing this way or did the idea come a little bit later?

Guest: No, the idea was already there because the translation market still is, but was even more at that time. Very fragmented markets, as we said, about 1 billion, estimated 1 billion. But also with internal translation there are I think 3,000, 4,000 translation agencies. A lot, very small. One owner, 100,000, €200,000. And then I saw figures, but I don't have the last figures, but in 2008 there were only 40, I think it was only 40 companies, about 1 or 2 million euro turnover. So just to say there are some big, not a lot, a little bit in the middle and then under 1 million. A lot, a lot, a lot. So a very fragmented market. So when I Did my business plan and when I spoke with Mr. Demand about was already actually in my head to say, I will grow through acquisition, I will grow through acquisition. Because I think in B2B, in the B2B market, the customer are pretty loyal. They stay, actually, they have a supplier, they are happy about the supplier. There's no reason to change. And sometimes it's even more risk for them to change instead of staying with the customer. And as long as they're happy in the translation, as long as you're happy, as long as your subsidiary are happy with the translation, you have no risk. Actually, you have no risk and you don't change. And that's the reason why I say instead of doing cold calling, trying to chase into new customer, that would tell me, no, I have my suppliers since 20 years. No, I know them forever. I said, those relationships, that's what I buy. Actually, that's the value of acquisition agency.

[31:18] Host: The range of acquisitions that you've made, you refer to some larger, some smaller. Give us a sense of that. Across the 11 acquisitions you've done,

Guest: the smallest was something like 40, 50,000. But it was only buying actually the customership.

Host: Yeah. What does that look like when you buy somebody? So it's an individual translator who has 50,000, does €50,000 a year in business. And so you're just acquiring their list or what are you acquiring?

Guest: Individual translator? I don't do. Because then in that case I come back to my intuito Persona. It's very related to him. And then I don't do. But it was actually small. One guy that tried to do the business. I think the smallest was one woman. She ran the business for some years and she wanted to change completely differently. Chinese medicine. And she was doing next to the translation agency, she was getting the diploma. And she said, now I want to stop, I want to start a new life. And she wanted to sell the. Sell the company. She was not translating. She was the middleman. So in that case, actually I can take over and be the middleman. And that was maybe the smallest one. And the other, the second biggest one was about a little less than a million euro turnover with three employees.

Host: That was the second smallest one.

Guest: No, no, that was the biggest one. That was the biggest one between 50,000 K. And there was another was hundreds. There was another one time I bought, also the customership was about €95,000 turnover. It was a translator. She was doing translation with translation agencies. And she had the part of direct sales and she wanted to get these direct sales away. We took over actually direct sales. And this one was a little bit actually too related to the owner. I didn't thought, but I didn't. But it was actually too much related. And I think we lost a lot of customers very fast because it was too small. It was only one language. In big companies that had 10 language. And of course I said, okay, she has one, I will get the nine other. And the buyer tell me somebody else has the nine other, and they will get the 10. So just. But you learn, you learn. It was a big learning call.

[33:37] Host: But in all of these acquisitions, big and small, they're always actual companies. You're never buying the individual translator because of what we just discussed. So even if they're really small, they're still a company where they're acting as the middleman between the client and the translators.

Guest: Yes, yes. Because otherwise it's not my business. Actually, if you have an individual translator, I'm today in contact with individual translators. But it's also a question of price. If they do, let's say, 100,000 or 60, 70,000, it's their salary. So I tell them, okay, but if you stop, then I need a project manager, then I need to buy the translation. For me, at the end, out of the 70,000 turnover, I will have 10, 15. So I can give you maybe 30, 40. And you say, yes, but I earn 60. I say, yes, I understand, but I can only pay you based on the profitability of what remains. So in that case, actually, it's difficult. And then it's related to the person, and then I don't do most of the time. And I think now I learned to discover that very fast. Now, sometimes after the first hour, I try to go directly into figures, directly into the organization, to save time. To save time. Because otherwise you speak, speak, speak.

Host: Speaking of going into the numbers. So demand was 1.5 million euros. And where is revenue today or projected for this year? And then what are your goals in terms of continued acquisitions?

Guest: This year I would like to reach 5 million through acquisition. My first goal was 5 million in 2020, but 2020 was different year. So if I can.

Host: We all missed our goals in 2020.

Guest: Exactly. So I can accept that it's not 2020. So it's 2021, so it will be at least 5 million with acquisition. And if I can go up to 10 million in 2022, 23, I think that would be my goal. That would be my goal to go.

Host: So from acquiring a company doing 1.5 million euros in 2015 to potentially 5 million six years later. So that's three times the size of the company and maybe even doubling that the next year or the next. So you're at 10 million euros as your goal for 2022, 2023. Having a 10 million euro company in eight years, that'd be quite an accomplishment. And do you think you keep going after that, or. I mean, what, do you have an end game or you're just thinking kind of two years and ahead?

[36:05] Guest: No, Today, I don't know. Today, I don't know. I think my first goal. I think you need goals, you need goals in life again. My first goal was to get independence, to have my own business, to. To grow something. My second goal was to earn more than my father. In one month. Maybe stupid, but that was my second goal.

Host: To earn more than your father did in a year? In one month.

Guest: Would say that my father was very successful. It was a very successful director and he learned with 30, 30 something. He had a very good salary. And he told me at only one time, just only one time, and stayed my life in my head. And that was the goal. Since I'm maybe 18, the first goal is to earn more than my father. Okay. Like you do in politics, but that was the goal.

Host: Is your father still around?

Guest: He's still there. He's still there.

Host: Did you tell him that you had this goal and that you met it?

Guest: Yes.

Host: And that you're now a better businessman than he is?

Guest: Yeah. And he's happy for him. And if my children do better than me, I'll be very happy, of course, very happy. But then that was again, that was my first psychological goal. The second one was to get asthma's cash. As my debt.

Host: As your debt.

Guest: And then I feel free after that. And then after. It was a question of opportunity. I think first were opportunities and now I'm really chasing after them. I'm in contact with brokers. I'm approaching more companies. Before I was approaching maybe 5, 6, 7, 10 per year, trying, and I was a bit afraid and I didn't know. And now she is really. I think since beginning of this year, it's really becoming kind of industrial. That's really my strategy, is to take over companies and I'm doing it, doing it, doing it. Today I spoke with five or six companies and I'm in contact with brokers. They know what I want, they give me. And basically it's really that reason why you have this learning curve at the beginning. And then once you start to grow, then you can create synergies. Today you have 17 employees. And we can take the translator from here, from there. We have project manager here that have still free time that we can move. And here I think they have better pricing that we have. So if I take them over, I will make, I will improve my bottom line here for some, whatever, 10, 20,000. So basically it's really starting to play around to see what can I get. And you can improve it, you can improve it pretty fast. And there are a lot of opportunities. I think now after Covid, all the CEO that were running every year, I will stop this year, but I make 100,000. I will stop next year, but I make 100,000. They were pushing, pushing, pushing. And with this Covid, they saw actually they had a lot of stress. Everybody had a lot of stress. And now people, I read this not only for small companies, but I read that also for bigger companies, people that say, no, now I want to do something else, I want to do something.

[39:05] Host: So all these owners who are old enough to retire, but were just procrastinating or continuing to stay on another year and another year and another year to generate that revenue, Covid has made them say, no, I want to prioritize my retirement or do something else or now is the time to get out of the business and retire.

Guest: That's the feeling I have. That's a feeling. I spoke with some people and they tell me, okay, now, now I'm ready. And since I saw that one or two times and I read that then I think, I think it could be true for. It could be true for more. And then I started to, I really started to speak to a lot of people. And again, as I always said, I already have the no before I call them. I already have the no. So it can only be, can only turn to a yes. If they say no, I don't want and I don't like you. It's okay, it's fine. They didn't know me. It was still not my company. So the best way, if it's not my company, after the call, it's okay. It was not before. But then you can turn it into a yes, into a positive. And I think now, since I have a little bit those experience, I can speak with them and explain them. And even if you don't do it now, I give them some advice. I tell them, look, this to do the valuation could be like this on the market. It's about like that. And I'm in contact with, I bought a company at the beginning of this year. I was in contact with the owners in 2016, April 2016. And we're speaking every six months, every year. And we didn't agree on the price and we didn't agree on the strategy, but we like each other. We like each other. And at one stage I said okay. Now I do you an offer and say okay, give it to you. And the deal was done with it. I think two months it was done, it was gone.

Host: You met in 2016 and when did you actually do the deal?

Guest: January 2021.

Host: January of this year.

Guest: Okay, discuss and then we follow and then say okay, now I'm ready. And he had another activity that he bought and he was less present in the business. And I said okay, now it's time and again after we did it very fast and I'm in contact with people and I get to know them. They were some years ago, they were playing golf, they were playing this and that. And now after five, six years, you know, I have more gray hairs than they have to.

Host: Sure. Okay. And anything that you might recommend to the Cedric of 2014, 2015? I mean it seems like your path has gone really well. So maybe you, maybe there's, you didn't do anything wrong, but maybe there, maybe you did. What would you say to your younger self?

Guest: I think the family need to be there. At that time I was separated, so basically I didn't have. But I work a lot, a lot, a lot. So I think if I would have a wife, I was separated but I think it's very important to bring the family with because it's a risk. You take a risk, you take a loan for a long time and you really need to be supported from your family. I went to the office on the, on the weekend to finish this, to prepare. So the family need to be, to be following you.

[42:07] Host: And when you made that acquisition, it was you and your 14 year old son?

Guest: No, because. No, it was only me, my, my son, my son actually. But that was. I was living and I'm still living with my son. So I don't think most of the time it's. Most of the time the children stay with the mother and actually one, the oldest son decided to come with me. So I had a takeover company to go there and to take care about a 14, 13 year old son to come back, come back early, maybe work after when he's already sleeping. Yeah, it was not easy to take over a company, do this and then take care about the 14 year old. That was difficult. So I say be sure that your family is following you. That's what I would Say, and then get some help. Get some help before, go to the Chamber of Commerce and be sure. I was not sure at that time that now if I, if I would have known before, I think I would have done even before. Because there is possibility to get help from the state to get the guarantee. If they believe in you, you will get the money. You see that something on. You see that on tv. But it's true, it's true. If they believe in you, you can get a high leverage because they are looking for young, dynamic people taking over company that wealthy owner actually want to sell or want to go out. So I would say that maybe the tip, yes, take your family with. Don't be afraid, don't be afraid of the money. And again, if you think that you can do at least as good as the owner, try to understand. And at least as good, if you think that it's better than you for any reason, don't go, don't go. But if you think that you can improve, if you see development, that you can add added value that you can offer, then you can go again. In Germany, up to 1.2 million. And I think in the US is even more. I heard about something 5 million. You can.

Host: Yeah, the SBA alone is 5 million

Guest: up to 5 million, Germany is 1.2. And then after you need to bring 10% or 15%, which is already high in the USA, if you can get 5 million again, it's a good opportunity.

Host: Well, I think that there's still deposit requirements. I think it's up to a 5 million in equity value on the business. But I don't know. I should know and I don't. But it's larger than Germany's, clearly larger.

Guest: So basically there's a possibility and you have owners that grow the business and when they are coming to the retirement, they don't invest so much business, they have less ideas. They did a lot. And that's where actually young, dynamic people can change. And even more, actually, you see, when I took demand, I saw that we improved the prices pretty fast because they were not really negotiating. I think on some translators or some translation agencies reduced the price by 30% with two calls because it was never done before and we are doing a lot. So I really think that there are opportunities. You can change, you can change a lot. It was not true in all the translation agencies and not for everybody. But if you look into the details, people that are 60, 65, they have less actually, they are less involved, I think in those type of things.

[45:24] Host: Sure, sure.

Guest: That's great.

Host: Cedric, where can people find you online?

Guest: I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. They can contact me. They can contact me there. They can contact me through the, our company, too. They can send me an email. It goes through my, through my, through my team. But he will come to me. Okay. I'll be happy.

Host: We'll link to both of those in the show notes. Go ahead.

Guest: I'd be happy to share some experience.

Host: Great. Cool. Well, thank you for sharing with me. This was a really, it's a really interesting story. And yeah, I love your advice of like you'd be. Would have started earlier if you had actually realized what the opportunity was earlier.

Guest: It's true. Really true.

Host: Great. Okay, thank you, Cedric.

Guest: Thank you very much. Take care.

Host: Bye. Bye.