Host: You've heard me cover more stories lately about acquisition entrepreneurs buying franchise businesses. In episode 93, I talked to Doug Johns about acquiring a Mr. Rooter franchise doing almost $2 million in EBITDA. In episode 98, I talked to James Temple about his journey buying and building 19 locations in the Mathnasium brand. Well, today's guest isn't an acquisition entrepreneur himself, but he has a deep expertise and network in the world of franchising. His pseudonym, which is how I'll refer to him, is the Wolf of Franchises or just Wolf. You've probably seen him on Twitter. I invited Wolf on Acquiring Minds to keep learning about the intersection of franchises and eta, so acquiring an existing business of a franchise brand instead of the more traditional path of acquiring an independent business. As you'll hear, Wolf's expertise is in full effect. This conversation is a great primer for those of us still warming to the world of franchising. Enjoy this interview with the one and only Wolfe of Franchises. Welcome to Acquiring Minds, a podcast about buying businesses. My name is Will Smith. Acquiring an existing business is an awesome opportunity for many entrepreneurs and on this podcast I talk to the people who do it. I want to share an update on the Acquisition Lab. As you know, the Lab is a highly vetted cohort based accelerator and community for people serious about buying a business. After going through the Lab's month long intensive, you have ongoing access to almost daily Q and A sessions with advisors, regular live deal reviews with Walker Deibel, author of Buy, Then Build Potential Deal, team introductions, and a very active Slack group with other searchers on the path. Well, the update is that the Lab recently passed 60 businesses acquired and for well over $100 million in aggregate transaction value. Also, all members now enjoy lifetime access to the Lab because when you buy a business it's often just the first of many and the Lab wants to support you in every deal, not just your first. Lastly, check out my recent interview with Shane Ursum, episode 105. Shane acquired a business with over $1 million in EBITDA in just six months and he attributes a lot of his deal success to what he learned in the lab. Check out acquisitionlab.com or email the lab's director, Chelsea Wood. Chelseieve Wolf, thank you for joining me today on Acquiring Minds.

Guest: Good to be here Wil.

Host: We're going anonymous today. You are known on Twitter as the Wolf of Franchises. You come from the world of franchising, you know a ton about it, and you now have a 70,000 follower strong Twitter account from which you write about all things franchising. So I wanted to have you on to educate the Acquiring Minds audience on how to think about franchise businesses from the perspective of acquisition entrepreneurship. So a lot of searchers might consider buying an existing established franchise business. So we'll call that a franchise resale as opposed to starting a territory or a location from scratch. And doing that means evaluating all the typical characteristics of a business, plus the whole element of being part of a franchise. So I want to explore that, and I think this will be really valuable to people because I know that there is a lot of curiosity from the search community out there about the opportunities presented by franchises. But before we get into it, a little anonymized background on you, please. Wolf.

[3:53] Guest: Yeah, sure. So I worked for many years at what is effectively a franchise incubator. So what we did was we would basically search the country for early stage franchises. So that could mean, you know, a franchise with two locations to maybe 20 locations max. It could be in any industry. And for those who are really new to franchises, it goes well beyond fast food. Most people hear franchise, they think of McDonald's. But there's actually franchises in pretty much every industry you can think of, from fitness to home services to business services. You know, like the UPS store, their printing and packaging services. That's a franchise. So, yeah, it really runs the gamut. But what we would do is again, find those franchises. We had our own internal criteria to kind of vet franchises and figure out which ones we thought had the potential to become a national and potentially even international brand. And yeah, we would become effectively their bolt on franchise sales department. So we would find franchisees around the country and we would bring them through the due diligence process for any one of our portfolio brands. So through that, Right. I just learned all about the different brands that are out there. There's over 4,000 franchises in the United States. And on top of that, I met a ton of existing franchise owners because it's actually very common for someone who already owns a franchise to then buy a new brand. And, you know, the stats are roughly a little over 50% of existing franchise owners either own multiple brands or multiple locations of the brand that they're in. So, yeah, I noticed a few things from my work there that I wanted to share. And that's kind of what led to the genesis of the Wolf.

Host: Two things to follow up what you just said. So where you the work that you were doing before as kind of the incubator, kind of consulting for franchise ors to build their brand and get Franchisees for people who are totally new to franchising, that's like really, that point of contact between potential franchisees and franchisors is really kind of where the, the whole thing hinges on that. It's a lot of the franchising game is about recruiting, that is selling new franchise locations to the local entrepreneur who's going to stand up that location or territory. Elaborate on that a little bit.

[6:24] Guest: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you nailed it, right? It's the name of the game. I mean like any sales role, right, to drive revenue, you can either sell more to your existing customers or you got to go find a new customer. And with franchising, right, because many of the people who are buying them operate in their local market. There's definitely big time multi unit owners who basically have national operations which we can get to, I'm sure later, you know, I'll cover something along those lines. But for the most part, you know, you need people in every state, right, to be opening your brand if your ambitions as a franchise or to become a national brand. So yeah, you know, the thesis too, just behind a company like the one I was at, where we're, you know, not actually a part of the brand, is that, you know, if you're an entrepreneur and let's just use a food example because that's easy. Let's say you start a taco restaurant. You know, you have two taco restaurants and at that point you think, hey, I'm going to start franchising this concept. You know, you might have great recipes for tacos, you might know how to run a restaurant, pick the real estate out, you know, know what equipment you need to cook the food and make, make a quality meal. But then figuring out how to find entrepreneurs all over the country, walk them through a two to three month, at minimum two to three month sales cycle and due diligence cycle and what tech stack to use, right? It's just a totally different ball game. It's a totally different world. Franchising is really like starting a second business. So a lot of the founders and CEOs of these small businesses that decide to franchise, they have, it's not easy. Some can do it, but many can't. And that's why companies like the one I was at exist. And you know, there's about five to seven legitimate ones around the country, but that's about it. And you know, they're all fairly on the smaller side, you know, 10 to 30 employees tops. So it's a pretty niche role. But you know, for me, I Think it was the perfect role to see both sides of the industry, both franchisees and franchisors.

Host: You just used the word legitimate, which another thing that unfortunately the franchising industry, sometimes its reputation is that there's a lot of sketchier actors in it. Both the intermediaries, the franchise consultants, and sometimes these many of these franchise the franchisors, these franchise opportunities. So you said there are 4,000 franchises to pick from as a prospective franchisee. And many of those are kind of junky. You really wouldn't want to touch them. So two questions on the same topic. First of all, of that 4,000, what is the number of ones you'd actually want to consider? I mean, is it 3000 of the 4000 are good or is it really only like 300 of the 4000 are really worth considering? Question A, question B, why is there this a little bit of scamminess, sleaziness sometimes associated with the franchising industry?

[9:28] Guest: Yeah, both great questions. So I mean, on the franchisor side and you know, like how many brands are legitimate? I mean, it's a little tough to say in the sense that like what I would consider a good opportunity might, you know, it varies from person to person. Everyone has different financial ambitions in, you know, number of hours they want to work, you know, and even just personally. Right. Some folks are okay with their business being more of a passion project, where others are completely capitalistic, which I tend to lend my thinking towards that where it's, hey, this is a business, this is investment, let's maximize the value we get out of it financially. But some right, you know, like there's especially education franchises seem to fit this where, you know, you got people who are just like, hey, I just want to help kids. They're not necessarily that focused on the income as long as it doesn't, you know, they don't want it to go south and bankrupt them. But like as long as they can pay the bills, they're happy doing what they're doing on a day to day basis. So it varies. But to give you some type of answer, I'd say like at least around 1500 are probably legit opportunities. There's definitely like 100 that are actually pretty fantastic business opportunities. I still want to caveat that with, you know, I've yet to see a single franchise brand other than maybe Chick Fil A, which that's. We don't even have to get into that conversation because it's a totally different setup between operator and franchisor. But Chick Fil A withstanding, you know, there's not a single brand where you can just buy one location and you're going to be, you know, rich and sitting pretty. It's all typically, you know, you have to scale operations, get to multiple locations or in the case of a home services brand, you know, say like gutter cleaning or something like that, you know those, those types of franchises operate more on a territory basis. So you secure a territory. It doesn't require brick and mortar, but you at least have that kind of geofenced exclusive territory to operate in and build your book of business. You know, with any, even the legitimate ones, you're still going to want to scale up to multiple locations to make high six figures, potentially seven figures EBITDA at some point. But still there are, you know, I'd say at least 100 plus brands. And I know that, right, because I'm covering two a week in my newsletter. So I've had to dig through thousands of them already over the past, you know, 15 months. I think the unfortunate part is, as you said, right, there's a high volume of brands, there's a lot of crap in there, or not even necessarily crap, just mediocre investments that are six to eight year paybacks and that makes it harder for even the good ones to stand out because there's just no good way yet to really research these brands. And getting to your second question, right, with that kind of leads right into the sleazy vibe that sometimes people get from the industry. I totally get it. That's why I started my newsletter and Twitter account. I noticed the same thing. It just there's a lot of misaligned incentives. You know, you have, you know, for folks since this won't be on video, at least my end won't. Franchise consultants, and I put that in air quotes because you know, they're really brokers. But the fact that they even that in the industry it's accepted that we should call them consultants like that. We're already starting at a somewhat not transparent point, right, because franchise consultants will work the same way real estate brokers do. Their services are free to the person using them, but they get paid commission based on you buying a franchise. In the same way when you buy a house, you know, the real estate broker gets paid. So yeah, there's a lot of misaligned incentives and it's not necessarily, you know, the people who are helping facilitate franchise purchases don't necessarily have skin in the game with the franchise owner. The person who buys the franchise and actually has to build the business and run it. And yeah, it just hasn't evolved yet. So again, just with my newsletter and my socials and even the podcast I have. Right. Part of it is just trying to bring more transparency, you know, bring a lot of the data that is out there on the Internet, but it's hard to find. Bringing it to the forefront and making it easy for people to understand the opportunities that are out there.

[13:43] Host: And just to double click on this, the franchise consultant, franchise broker player in the industry, those consultants often, so they position themselves as helping you, the prospective franchisee, choose the right franchise opportunity for you based on what you like, based on what your resources are, based on how much time you want to give it, etc. Your ambitions. But the part where they're not maybe so transparent is often they will only represent a handful or I don't know how many, but a subset of the 4000. So they're not looking out across the entire franchise universe and truly hand picking the very best thing for you. They're going, they've already kind of, they're working with certain franchises and they're going to, they're going to shoehorn if they have to you into one of the ones that they're already working with. Point A, Point B is the compensation is enormous. I think you were just, were telling me just yesterday that it can be like 25 grand. So if they bring a new, new, if they so much as introduce you, the prospective franchisee to a franchisor, that can mean five figures, 20 grand, 30 grand. Do I have that right?

Guest: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's accurate. And yeah, look, it's not to say there are good brokers out there who want to sleep at night and aren't going to, you know, force someone into a brand that isn't going to do well for them. But at the same time, you know, if, if there's a system that can be gamed, it will be gamed. And the franchise world is no different. So there are brokers out there who are, like you said, they're really trying to pigeonhole candidates into brands that are just going to pay them the most commission. And you know, it's hearsay, but I definitely hear things in the industry where, you know, certain brands, you know, reach out to the very active brokers and say, hey, we'll pay you extra commission for all the leads you give us. So yeah, it's, it's not, it really depends on the broker you get. Again, like I have, like, I've been on a few brokers podcasts Good people, honest people. So I definitely don't want to, like, paint a broad stroke that all brokers are evil, but it's really kind of what you said in the first place is what. It's not a broker. It's an industry problem. Like, I'm not hating on the player, I'm hating on the game. And that's what you said before, which is that the brokers don't represent all the brands. It's a subset. So again, while there are good brokers out there, I'm a big believer in incentive structures. The brokers don't have incentives to put to push a candidate to a brand that they're not gonna get paid commission on. Right. So if there's a great brand that isn't in their, what they call their brand inventory, there's a, you know, they're probably not gonna mention it, even if it's a great fit for you. So, again, I think that's a problem with the industry at large. And yeah, you know, the industry needs a neutral player in that sense.

[16:38] Host: Great, great. Well, you seem to be making. Getting some traction in becoming that voice, at least judging by your Twitter following, which is awesome.

Guest: Appreciate it.

Host: All right, let's get into franchising from the perspective of ETA entrepreneurship through acquisition. So one question is, you know, one of the appeals of acquisition entrepreneurship is that you're buying an existing business and that business will have processes, that business will have a brand, that business will have all sorts of pieces in place that you, the acquisition entrepreneur, get to step into. Now, you will likely run, refine those processes and make all the changes and bring new energy and new ideas, et cetera, et cetera. But a big part of the appeal is that you're starting on second base or whatever doing a franchise is. Actually, in some ways, it's a similar pitch. And I'm talking about now not buying a franchise resale. I'm talking about starting a location from scratch. If I go to a franchisor and I say, hey, I want to know, be your, your location. Have a location of your franchise in Arlington, Virginia, you know, the benefit to me is that they're going to give me the playbook, they're going to give me the processes, they're going to give me all this infrastructure that if they have a national brand, if it's a, if it's a mature franchise, they'll have a national brand, they'll be doing the marketing spend and so on. So, you know, I'm, I'm getting a lot of that stuff. You Know, it's, it's similar, kind of like starting on first or second base kind of argument. Different but similar. So why buy a franchise resale when I can when the kind of whole pitch of doing a new location or new territory is that I'm getting this infrastructure for my franchise fee?

[18:25] Guest: Yeah, well, I'd say it has similar pros, you know, similar benefits to buying an independent small business. Right. Because it's already cash flowing, it already has a built in customer base. So theoretically, right, it's quicker, it's quicker to cash flow just in the same way the typical ETA playbook is. Even though you are right in what you said, if you're building a new franchise location, yes, you're given the playbook, you're given the infrastructure to go pick a site, potentially have to do some construction and modify it, but you're given the grand opening marketing plan and you know where to put your job postings and where to even like job descriptions and like what you should say in your job postings. Like they, the franchises are very specific and you know, the good ones, it's pretty built out ops playbook so to speak. So yeah, you're given a ton of help but still like you're a new brand to that area. Unless you're a national brand. Like you said, it's, it's likely going to take some time still to build up a book of business regardless of what the brand is and what industry you're in. It's just going to take time, even generate Google reviews and things like that that matter for online discoverability. I've heard it time and time again from franchisees that I speak with and that have been on my podcast where new builds just it takes longer to really cash flow which means it takes a little longer to return that investment. The pro is though is that if you're trying to do a new build, you know there's availability in your market. As long as you present yourself well to the franchisor and have the capitalization to be able to afford it, then you can do it. But if you're trying to do a, you know, a resale, trying to purchase an existing location, there's no guarantee that the seller's going to sell. There's no guarantee that they're going to sell to you if they are selling. So it's a bit of a different dynamic there.

Host: August Felker is a two time successful searcher. First with a traditional search fund. The second time around he did a self funded search. Today August runs Oberly Risk Strategies, an insurance firm with a dedicated practice group for searchers and acquisition entrepreneurs like you. If you've got a business under Loi, Oberly will provide complimentary due diligence on that business's insurance and benefits program. A great no risk way to get to know August and team. They love helping searchers. They've worked with hundreds. Oberle is a specialty insurance brokerage for searchers by a former searcher. Check out oberle-risk.com O B E R L E- risk.com link in the show notes and from the stories that you know of acquisition entrepreneurs who buy a resale, do they, did they kind of target a particular franchise that they want to network that, what do I call it? A franchise or franchise brand? A brand, I guess. Did they target a particular brand that they wanted to build their empire in and then try to kind of go talk to owners or, or what? Like if I. Is that how it would look? Or is it more like they were doing a broad search, like a generalized search, acquisition entrepreneur search and a franchise opportunity came up and they said oh yeah, they assessed the business and they thought it looked good and then they kind of just did it that way because the opportunity presented itself.

[21:58] Guest: Yeah, I'd say it varies from like entrepreneur to entrepreneur. But just to give a few tangible examples, there's one person, his name is Michael Horowitz, he was set on buying a national fast food brand. So he spoke to all the big boys, spoke to McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, and eventually settled with Wingstop. Because depending on the brand, some were not very receptive to a first time franchisee buying into one of their brands. Right. You know, those are seriously competitive systems. They have thousands of franchisees at their disposal who could potentially gobble up a new opportunity and just add it to their portfolio. And you got to, you know, again, back to incentives. Think about it from the franchisor's perspective, right. It's easier for them, you know, Will, if you own a Burger King it already. It's easier for them, you know, if the guy down the street is selling his location. Burger King corporate wants you to take it over because you already know the system. You don't need to be retrained on anything. You don't need any extra hand holding. But a first time buyer into the system, never mind a first time franchise owner, they might need some more support and it's just more resources from their perspective. So that incentive structure is important to recognize. But this person in particular, Michael Horowitz former investment banker, well capitalized, you know, was very professional in his approach and, you know, was able to get FaceTime with a bunch of those brands, which. That in and of itself is impressive because again, like if you go onto Wendy's franchise website and every franchise website has a forum where it says, interested in, you know, learning more. Reach out to us new brands or they should be answering those inquiries because they kind of need it. Right. They're trying to grow and become a national brand. But these, you know, old, very famous brands, that's not going to cut it for the most part unless your application is like off the charts. But realistically, right, you got to find another way to get connected with someone on the inside. So it was a lot of scrappy work from Michael to really just do LinkedIn, cold emails, cold messages, all that type of stuff. Get his resume, you know, in front of these people. Anyway, settled on Wingstop because he was just looking at it broadly at the fast food industry and wanted a nationally recognized brand that had just an established presence. So that's what he did. Then there's another person, Brian Beers, who.

[24:30] Host: Let me ask you a question, Wolf, about, about, about Michael. So did he, when he finally got the attention of the Wingstop whatever internal team or what are the names of the teams inside these franchisors that deal with the franchisees, the BD team or what?

Guest: So they're typically called like the development team. So idols. You know, if you're going to like search this on LinkedIn to anyone listening. Director of Franchise Development. VP of Franchise Development. Yeah, franchise development is like the department that is effectively just franchise sales. They also, you know, typically do some marketing functions too. But like those are the people who, if you're engaging in due diligence with the brand, it's the development team that you're speaking with.

Host: Great. So when he finally got the attention of the development team at Wingstop, did he then was what he was trying to convince them to do or to open the minds to is to if there was a franchisee looking to sell to send it to him exactly what it was.

Guest: Yep.

Host: Okay.

Guest: Yeah. And I think it's, you know, he owns 20 today and he's only been in the system for three to four years, I believe. Owns 20 today. His first, he bought seven at a clip. I think it was an owner in Ohio and he's based in New York. So yeah, honestly it's pretty impressive that he did it right. Because remotely owning and operating is very different than being local in market. I think I'm pretty sure he does fly out there and he probably did fairly regularly in the beginning. But yeah, that's just one example of how it can be done. There's others who, you know, hone in on one brand and they have their own reasons for that. So. Happy to share that too at some point.

Host: Sure. Okay, great. And then so go, go. You were going to speak about Brian Beers.

Guest: Oh yeah, yeah. We could do Brian. Yeah. So that's an example. Right. I believe his father actually owned Midas, the oil change, you know, car franchise. So that got him into the system and like, it's almost like applying for a job when you're talking about these big national brands. Right. Like you, you kind of just need an in to get an interview if you're trying to get a job at a competitive company. And then. Right. You kind of have to do the work, you know, presenting well during the interview. But if you just know one person to get your foot in the door, that can make a world of difference. So Brian had that with his father. I think he even acquired one location off his father and then learned the business really well by operating and owning that one location. And because he's just knows Midas inside and out, he's been able to rapidly scale up. And he's at like 30 plus locations now. Right. And the beauty of franchise ETA is that he's just reached out and networked with the, you know, a thousand or, you know, multiple hundreds of operators around the country and made it known, hey, I'm a high performing operator, I'm looking to buy more. If you're ever going to sell, let me know. And it's an old brand, which means there's people who are ready to retire or have just been in the system for long enough where they're ready to have a liquidity event and cash out a little bit. Brian basically gets off market deals all the time from existing franchisees within that closed network. It's been an incredibly effective way for him to scale.

[27:45] Host: Well, let's talk about that. Brian, he did find himself in the system because his father owned five or six, some number of locations. Yeah, five or six, exactly. So that's great. But you're seeing on Twitter now, in fact from, from Brian, people talking about the rolling up franchises, but that if, if you're not already within a particular system, you have that rather large hurdle to get over like we're talking about. You have to, you know, find the opportunity, you have to sell the franchisor on you and so on. But at the same time, you can see how doing a roll up of franchises would go a lot faster. If you can get through some of these initial hurdles would go a lot faster than doing a roll up of independent businesses. What are your thoughts on this fantasy, on this meme?

Guest: I think it's realistic. I just think the time horizons have to be in line with maybe the skill set of the owner and operator. And what I mean by that is just something I've noticed is a lot of the first time buyers, whether it's a new build or they acquire an existing location for their first franchise, it's very common where they say they need to work in the business for at least a year, some as much as two, three, four years. Again that depends on the brand, depends on the operator. So take that as you will. But by doing that they get to know the business inside and out. They, they do every job possible in the business so that, that makes it easier not only to understand the business and how it really all functions, but also even hiring and just gaining their respective employees. It's like, hey, I've done all these jobs, I'm not asking you to do something I haven't done. But they only start scaling after they really feel comfortable and confident with being an owner of the business. And going from one to two is, is difficult, right? Because now you have two of the same businesses, it feels like double the work. That, that's what everyone says. But once you kind of figure out two, it gets easier. And you know I've had owners of F45 to Orange Theory to Five Guys. Everyone kind of says it, you know, it doesn't even matter the industry. Just once you understand multi unit operations and that starts at 2, from there it gets easier. So I guess the advice really is just, just don't try to scale too quickly because if you don't have a solid foundation set, you know you're going to run into trouble later on.

[30:18] Host: That's great. And what about the idea that like yes, it sounds great to be within the Midas network and to then just like have this, you know, existing really clear, really easy to access pool of potential of owners, potential sellers that you can just reach out to and very quickly, you know, dominoes can start to fall. But on the other hand that pool is, is quite narrow. Yes, there are a lot of Midas locations around the country or around your region, but there are only so many. Whereas if I'm doing landscaping businesses, independent landscaping businesses, there are many, many more presumably out there that I can, that are all Potential candidates. So while your targets are much clearer and easier to reach if you're within a franchise network, it's also like, well, you know, if I'm in Arlington, Virginia and I'm trying to buy Midas locations around the dmv, the, the DC metro area, you know, and if I, you know, maybe there's five of them, 10 of them, I don't know. But you know, probably. What if nobody wants to sell? Like maybe all 10 of them are perfectly content, thank you very much, to keep owning their Midas franchise. Well then, then there goes my entire strategy. So it seems like there's kind of a lot of risk to just, you know, buying into a franchise and putting your future into this one. Not only industry, but particular brand without knowing in advance that indeed, you know, people are going to sell to you.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: Is there any way to, is there any way to mitigate that risk? You had talked about old franchises versus new franchises. I know that could be one way to mitigate that risk. So elaborate on that.

Guest: Yeah, yeah. I mean you're dead right. There is risk. There's no guarantee that sellers are going to sell, sell in general or sell to you. Generally speaking though, again, I mentioned this earlier, right. Most franchise owners, you know, it's about 54% ish, own multiple locations or multiple brands. So there's a good chance is what I'm saying is that you'll have a multi unit owner if you are going to even be, but be able to buy into the system. You know, it's, it's less likely that you'd actually be buying into the system with a one, a single unit owner. But even if that's the only opportunity, look, I mean there's the potential for, you don't have to be in market. I know it sounds intimidating, right. But I've just, I've seen it done multiple times where the owner is not the operator and they're not locally in the market. And assuming that you know, the location isn't totally underperforming, hopefully you can retain kind of like a GM or a manager that's already at the location. So I guess what I'm saying is you don't necessarily have to limit yourself to your local geography. I do completely understand why as a first time buyer though you would want to just, it just feels safer. But yeah, there is also the flip side of this where hey, there's, you don't have to go with a mature brand, you can go with a newer brand. And again, there's the buy versus build dilemma. There where you're going to be building locations for the new brand. So again, longer to cash flow, but the guarantee is that there's available territory, there's white space. You know, I, you know, through my last, you know, when I was at that franchise incubator, one of our brands was a pet brand and it did very well. In our first year we had a lot of, for whatever reason, we had a lot of Orange Theory owners that kind of flocked to it. And I got to know the Orange Theory system pretty well and their owner base and particularly their founding franchisees, if you will, where I spoke to franchisee number three, number six, and I think 15. And that's a brand. It was only found in 2010. Today's got know close to 1500 locations worldwide, one of the most successful franchises ever in terms of how quickly they've grown and how well the system is done. So really impressive brand, but I just got to see kind of the benefits, right, of that other avenue, which is buy an emerging brand because it's emerging. You can negotiate during the due diligence, hey, I want to secure this wide territory. And there a lot of the emerging brands because there's this give and take, right, where they want to show new franchisees every year. Like, hey, last year we just brought in this many franchisees that are going to build this many units. It makes for a more compelling sales case, right? Versus if they said, oh, we didn't sell anything last year, then that's a red flag to a new franchisee. So you have more leverage, is what I'm saying, as a franchisee coming into an emerging brand. And so you should be able to transfer that leverage into securing a large territory. And a lot of these Orange Theory owners, they secured 10, 20. I met some that owned over 100 franchises across the country. And so, and that's a, that wasn't just from their upfront territory negotiations. Some of those ones went on to acquire other franchisees and things like that. But the point is, right, if you secure that territory and as long as you pick a legitimately good brand with a differentiated business model that can perform well, I mean, that's, that's very valuable because you can secure it for cheaper. Right, like they're going to, and the franchisor is going to ask you, you know, they're going to say, hey, all right, we'll give you 12 locations that you're going to be going to have to build it over, you know, five or six years or whatever the number is. So, yeah, it's got its pros and cons and.

[35:26] Host: But the flip side there or the con would be the risk that you buy. And you know, it's an, it's an emerging franchise and it falls flat. How do you, you know, what are the best practices there in terms of evaluating a franchise that's really got momentum is going to keep with that momentum. And maybe a more, a more concrete way to ask this question is with Orange theory, which started it. You said, I think you said in 2010, what year was it where it was clear that its success was assured or you know, pretty clear and nothing is ever assured. But you know, was it 2011 or was it not really until 2015 that you know, what's the sweet spot there of when you want to get in? It's not too late that it's so popular. Everybody knows and then you know, they get to pick, they get to really pick their be choosy about their franchisees. But so you know, it's kind of risk reward. Where's the sweet spot?

[36:19] Guest: Yeah, I'd actually focus. I mean look, time matters, right? Just to see how a brand evolves and is it a phase? You know, I think everyone's asking the question now, are cookies a fad? Are they going through just a phase where the country's obsessed with cookies but is it going to die out? And that's led by crumbl cookies. So the time that a business has been open matters. But for evaluating a franchise, and this is my personal criteria, I have a higher risk tolerance than most, I think but If I see 50, if there's 50 locations open around the country, know we're talking different markets, doesn't necessarily have to be like at the southern tip of Florida and the, you know, most northern northwest tip of Washington. Right. But you know, you want to see different markets and some just variability there to see like oh hey, this can work in two totally different markets where both of them, it was the first introduction of that concept into that market to me. 50 is more than enough worth if the. And as part of due diligence you get to talk to the existing owner base and that that is the most valuable resource. So full disclosure to everyone, I am not the most valuable resource. No one at the franchisor is the most valuable resource. No broker, consultant, whatever you want to call them. The best people you can talk to in any due diligence of a franchise is existing owners. They are on the inside. They already have their skin in the game. They've made the decision, they've done the leap of faith. And, you know, I even have one contact in the industry. He speaks to the owners in New Jersey and New York every time as his first phone calls, because he just thinks people in the Northeast are going to tell you how they feel right away. That seems to have worked well for him, honestly. So that's just funny anecdote if you want to use that strategy.

Host: So existing owners and New Yorkers direct

Guest: all the owners of New York look, if they have 50 locations. Seriously, if a brand has 50 locations open and operating, and the unit economics look good from a ROI perspective,

Host: to

Guest: me, that's more than enough proof of concept, assuming there's no major red flags with the executive team, or again, trying to think maybe if there's supply chain risk or something like that. But to me, that's more than enough proof of concept.

Host: Okay, that's great. 50 and of diverse markets. So. So that's kind of about assessing the viability of the concept as it grows.

Guest: Yes.

Host: What about the. Just kind of let. Let's say it's a more mature franchise. It's not necessarily one that's like, just in its early growth stages, but it's still, I assume there are stronger and weaker franchises, and I come across one on, you know, biz by sell or whatever. The business looks good, but I'm not sure about the health of the franchise brand. Maybe I've heard of it. It's not McDonald's, it's not, you know, marquee, but maybe I've heard of it, maybe I haven't. What are some of the ways to assess the health of the franchisor and the franchise brand overall?

[39:33] Guest: Yeah, so there's a document called the Franchise Disclosure Document. If you're familiar with, like, equity investing. Every public company on the stock market has a 10K. Every franchise has an FTD. It's actually a regulated industry. Despite all the crazy, sleazy stuff that can happen, the Federal Trade Commission does regulate it. So they mandate every franchise from McDonald's to Franchise 4000, the one that you haven't heard of yet, that only has one location. Every single brand needs an fdd, and it includes a lot of key pertinent information on that brand. And one of the sections of it covers the growth rate from the past three years. So it'll show you how many franchise locations were open three years ago, how many corporate locations were open three years ago, and then it moves up, you know, two years prior, one year prior. So you get to see if it was a net negative or positive. You Also get to see closures, terminations. Right. Because while a brand may have grown in total by, you know, 100 locations over three years, that's not as good if they close, you know, if they close locations in that time frame. Right. So it, like there's one section that just tells you the net, but there's another section that tells you also if there were closures involved. So you want to see a positive net growth rate with as little closures as possible, as well as lawsuits. There's a section to see if there's been lawsuits, recent lawsuits, which can include franchisees suing franchisors, vice versa, trademark infringement. If, like the franchise is in trouble with another big company that is saying, hey, you're infringing on our trademark. So a bunch of different things like that. But yeah, the FTD can be used to evaluate a lot of those things. And the only caveat I'll say too is like, the bigger a brand gets, some closures is to be expected, honestly. Right. If you have hundreds and hundreds of locations, you know, it's probably going to happen where there's a closure or two, possibly a lawsuit or a few of them. And that's not necessarily like a deal. It shouldn't be necessarily a deal breaker. Just when you have a business at scale, shit happens, for lack of a better way to say it. But yeah, I mean, the top franchises still have very, very low failure rates and very little lawsuits.

Host: You had mentioned unit economics a couple minutes ago, looking at that, at a franchise concept. I know that, I don't know if unit economics, but I know that there is some pretty good financial information available in ftds generally. Right. Can you talk to us about that?

[42:12] Guest: Yeah. So there's a section, it's called item 19, which is the section where a brand can share financial performance representations. So the unfortunate part is it's not mandatory for a brand to share anything there. So it can be blank and not say anything about the financials. But some brands do choose to be transparent, typically. Right. I view it as a. If a brand isn't sharing it, it could be a red flag. If it's an emerging brand, to me, that's definitely a red flag because if you're, you know, only have five to 20 locations and you're not showing anything in the financials, it's like, hey, why not? And 9 out of 10 times there might be some mental gymnastics in the response from a franchisor, but it's typically because they don't think they're that compelling. However, a massive brand, you know, you have so many franchisees that you could reach out to that. I don't necessarily blame a brand for not sharing anything because there is some like liability when you do include financials where you, you can only then market and discuss the financials that are in that FDD as a sales representative. So by excluding it you actually take some liability off your plate. As long as you just say hey, we don't have anything under fdd, can't talk to you about it. But hey, here's a list of 500 franchisees. Speak to as many as you want. Which. So you know, I'm not necessarily saying I love that I'd still, you know, most franchises are charging a percentage based royalty, meaning if you make a million dollars, you know, the standard is 6% for a lot of brands. So if you do a million in revenue, the franchisor gets $60,000 of that. So based off that, every franchise that's doing that should be able to know what their average revenue per franchisee is. So like I personally think they should still be disclosing revenue. Like there's, there's no reason not to, they mathematically can do it. But you know, again that's why you'll see big brands, it's not as, as big of an issue in my mind if they're not sharing anything. But newer brands, if they're not sharing financials, that, that's, you know, you definitely want to inquire about that if you're still interested.

Host: Mm, great. That's great. Anything else on the, on the fdd, where to get them? I know there's state websites or something like they're available but it's, it's kind of weird. So explain that to folks.

Guest: There's a few websites that charge for them and it could be anywhere from 330 bucks to $250. So I would recommend don't pay for them, use. The state of Wisconsin has a good website. I would just Google where to find FDDs. And there's this first Google result. It's been this way for years. At this point is a franchise law firm that lists, they link to the four state websites that do the best job of providing ftds. And that's Wisconsin, Indiana, Minnesota and California. Again, Wisconsin's the easiest from like a, I mean you still brace yourself, you know, if you're tech savvy, you're going to be appalled by having to do this. But Wisconsin is the most user friendly of all of them. It's still rough and I mean that's how I get a lot of my FTD's that I. Because I'll screenshot them and put them in my newsletter, the financial sections so people can see like straight from the FTD what a brand is putting out there. But yeah, that's the best spot. It's free. It has most of the brands that you'd want to look at. There's probably some that you won't find there, especially the newer ones. There might be some of them that aren't registered in Wisconsin. So Wisconsin won't have their fdd. But yeah, I would say, you know that that's your starting point and the

[45:50] Host: FDD is going to be. It's the same document in California and in Wisconsin it's not.

Guest: Yes, exactly. Yeah, there's no change. Okay. Yeah. Nope, nope. No changes.

Host: Turning now back to more mature franchises. So those are probably the ones where if I have a roll up strategy I'm going to have to look because in a new franchise you're going to be. It's just too young to be rolling up much existing, existing stuff. But if I want to own Midas locations I'm kind of going to be forced to do a roll up because it's all claimed territory and they're all going to be resales. How is there, do you have any kind of tips or strategies on thinking about these, these mature brands and how you might approach a roll up strategy?

Guest: So I think we touched on it a little bit earlier which is breaking into the system. You got to figure that out. But once you're in again, especially if you're the first time buyer, just, just don't scale too quickly which I think naturally. Right. If you're struggling with location number one, it kind of prevents you from even figuring out a second location. But yeah, beyond that it seems to be just. I hate the word but good old fashioned networking. Get in front of the franchise owners that might be selling. I know Brian Beers who we've talked about from the Midas system. He prefers for them to be in the local area and again that's a massive brand. So he's been able to find 30 locations for sale within a somewhat reasonable drive. But yeah, it's really about getting the attention of the owners. And I would suggest using seller financing seems to be a way to get deals done quicker. So Brian leverages that a lot. It's less capital intensive for you as a buyer and can get a deal done quicker and back to just like. Right. Once you know the location very well and know the brand, the Business inside and out. You can then pretty quickly identify if another, you know, another Midas location is worth buying. You know, Brian's very confident in his ability to do turnarounds because he knows how to, he just knows how to operate his business inside and out. So you know, he can very quickly. He said, he said within like six to ten minutes of looking through someone's books, he knows if he's going to buy it or not.

[48:19] Host: So yeah, and if I want to buy, kind of pursue a roll up strategy within an older, more mature franchise is, is my first line of attack. What you were saying, what was it Michael Horowitz did? Should I be reaching out to the franchisor, their development teams first or do I approach some local owners first or it doesn't matter, but do both.

Guest: So I think it depends on your capital situation because like Michael Horowitz, right. I think he may have even raised some money because again, he's an ex Wall street professional. He may have raised a little bit of money with some Wall street contacts because he acquired seven at once. That's a pretty large transaction, right? And it's Wingstop. It's like a cheap, you know, like a Wingstop to build costs, you know, probably close to a million dollars. So there's definitely more inexpensive franchises out there. So yeah, your financial situation depends. There's definitely nothing wrong if you're going for the resale route. I don't think it's, I mean, right. People do that in the traditional ETA model, right. Where rather than just like looking at biz buy sell on these websites, you know, if you like the local laundromat, why not just try to ask for the owner and say, hey, do you want to sell? You never know if you don't ask. So you can definitely do the same thing with franchises. But if you're open to operating remotely the way Michael Horowitz did, and you're just looking for brands nationwide or locations nationwide, then yeah, you want to talk to the development team because they'll have a full scope of what's going on in the entire system. And you know, there's a, there's an owner of five guys named Lucas Mitchell, who he was a manager and I think the Nevada area, he managed eight for the franchisee. And then he realized, hey, I'm managing eight, like I can definitely own some of my own and get more financial upside. So he reached out to five guys and because they saw he was a good manager, they, they were, you know, very willing to help him. And he ended up Moving to Arizona to buy five. Five Guys locations. Oh wow. Today owns like 15 or maybe maybe close to 20. I'm not sure. But yeah. So there's multiple ways to skin that cat.

Host: And let's say I see on Biz Buy Sell a franchise business or a number of locations being sold as a package. Given that there's all this kind of behind the scenes, there's the, there's the, there's all of the current owners of this franchise. There might be, you know, other would be franchise owners like Michael, like Lucas. The stories that we're talking about who are kind of chomping at the bit to get in. Do you need to. Should it be a red flag if, if I see a package of, of, you know, a number of. Of franchise locations? Come on. Biz by Sell. Like why, like the, the classic biz by sell question. Why hasn't somebody savvier more better like better resource, better connected, bought these first? Why are they coming out to the public market? Is that a red flag or maybe yes, maybe no.

[51:21] Guest: Yeah, I mean, I know that's the annoying answer, but it is probably the right one is maybe yes, maybe no. It defies a case by case basis. I mean, yeah, like we've been talking about some big brands, right? Midas, Wingstop, five guys. If you know, a cluster of five guys or Wingstop locations ended up on Biz by Sell, I'd be like, wait, how is that not going somewhere else? Because they're just such a big brand. And I mean there's institutional operators in some of these brands, right, who own hundreds of locations and it's run by private equity at the end of the day. So yeah, like if I was seeing something like that on Biz by Sell, it would definitely be setting off my, you know, internal alarm system. But you know, it is case by case though. I mean for most of these transactions, it's the business owner's first time ever selling a business. So they're not necessarily. And a lot of people there's like, right, this podcast and even mine, I'm showing people how to buy franchises. There's not a lot of education out there for like, how do you sell your business? So like a lot of these owners, right, and it's at the tail end of a decade to potentially multi decade journey. They don't necessarily know what they doing or they're doing. So yeah, it's very reasonable that some of them do just contact a local business broker. And of course the business broker is going to put it on Biz by Sell. So, yeah, it's definitely not. I wouldn't just scratch anything off the list on biz by sell. But, you know, the proof is ultimately in the pudding. By that, I mean financial.

Host: Right, Right. You had said at the top how, you know, when most people think franchise, they think fast food, they think restaurants. And you and I had talked about offline about how, you know, restaurants aren't your favorite category, even though they are kind of the most visible and the most even, even popular among prospective. Prospective franchisees. Talk about that a little bit. Why? Maybe you don't like franchises as much despite their popularity. Excuse me, Restaurants as much despite their popularity. And then are there any other categories that you would want to call this, you know, a searcher audience to.

Guest: Yeah, so food franchises, especially fast food. You know, there's some QSRs with higher margins. But like the standard fast food brand is going to cost over a million dollars. I mean, the big players that we've talked about, like Wendy's, Burger King, McDonald's cost, you know, 2 to 4 million to build and the margins just aren't that great. You know, a good food franchise after paying royalties is doing 10% ish. So it's just not high. Like there's better, you know, margin businesses out there. I mean, there's children's services or fitness brands that are doing pushing 25, 30% margins. So yeah, I just think, I think a lot of people, that's what they think of when they hear franchise. So they don't necessarily explore the entire world of it. So yeah, there's just a lot of good businesses out there. So I, I will also say though, right, like there are fast casual brands that are doing higher margins than, than fast food. So it's really like the QSR sector where I'm just, I'm not like super hot on it, but you obviously can do well. Right. Like we've spoke about Michael Horowitz, if you own 20 wingstops, you're doing, you're doing okay for yourself. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, beyond that, I think, you know, there's a lot of, there's non brick and mortar franchises that are fantastic businesses. You know, home services. I've seen some amazing brands in like insulation, you know, putting insulation in houses to restoration. You know, like water restoration in houses as well as senior care services are also, you know, there's some very good ROIs in some of these brands. You know, I think I covered one Safe Home Care a month ago. And yeah, just really, you know, not super expensive investment levels because there's no real estate that is required unless you want to have your own office space. And yeah, it's just a high margin service business which you have to be more intelligent about how you scale but it still can be done where you can have a pretty large operation.

[55:29] Host: And all of this analysis of yours is coming from the ftds of these various franchises?

Guest: Yes.

Host: Yeah, okay.

Guest: And a few of them. Sorry, go ahead.

Host: No, I was just going to say it seems like the analysis of a good franchise franchise category to get into is. Is this is not dissimilar from just what like a good category period to get into. So if home services are appealing to ETA broadly, they're also going to be appealing to, you know, franchise based eta. So definitely similar analysis there.

Guest: Yep, yep. Completely agree.

Host: The what were some of the mistakes that you saw franchisees make when you were in your previous role and seeing, you know, both sides of the table, both franchisees kind of making decisions about what franchise to go with. And then of course on the franchisor side you saw a lot of activity as well are there aside from just being drawn, I think just being drawn to restaurants because everybody likes restaurants and knows restaurant brands and thinks of restaurants when they think of franchising. Were there any other kind of classic mistakes that you saw naive would be franchisees make that the audience could benefit from avoiding?

Guest: Yeah, I'd say the common two are just franchisees buying a business that they were a customer of. Like that was their primary reason is that they loved being a customer. Whether that was. I've seen it work out too. So like. But it's just from a philosophy standpoint I wouldn't recommend it. You know, I interviewed an F45 owner. He was in Australia on vacation and felt did a workout at F45, loved it and then brought it back to Ireland with him. And you know, I'm sure he was a pretty seasoned entrepreneur. So he probably did the financial analysis and said oh it also checks out. But I have seen people who pretty much just they have their mind made up on the first phone call and it's just, you know, you got to kind of separate your emotion from the logical and rational side of just doing the financial analysis. So yeah, obviously it's great if the business you love is also a fantastic investment, but that's not always the case. And secondly, not really knowing what business you're getting into. And the people who said it best, were they on about seven massage envies? They are full stop in the hiring business because massage therapists are actually becoming More and more competitive to come by and they didn't necessarily realize that. And if someone thinks about owning a massage business, maybe they really are into wellness or you know, some forms of, you know, health and whatnot. But you know, they were just really, I mean they've done great, but they were just surprised, right? At just like how much of their time is literally just spent on recruiting and hiring, selling the vision of why massage Envy versus another brand and why their system where, you know, they have seven locations and maybe there's more room for upward mobility and all that stuff. So yeah, just to understand, I guess that like the industry that you're in with your business isn't necessarily reflective of like what you're really going to be doing like day to day basis as the owner. So yeah, such a great point.

[58:47] Host: I, when I hear that about massage envy, that kind of just tells me that there's just a ton of churn. So you're also like in the retention business. I mean. Exactly, Wolf. So let's close out with a, if you can, just a couple of kind of names that you like and that you don't like. Some kind of like hot or not. What. Are there any particular franchise brands that are really interesting to you now that aren't, you know, know, long since established and inaccessible to the acquisition entrepreneur, but ones you'd want to put on the radar of the folks listening?

Guest: Yeah, yeah. And I'm sorry, so you're looking for like mature brands or newer brands?

Host: Well, let's do both. But I guess let's start with mature brands since those are going to be the ones where ETA is more likely to occur.

Guest: Yeah, yeah, I'd say kind of going off of Brian Beers. In the automotive industry there's a franchise that does like exterior repairs and decals called Tint World around since the 1980s. Pretty great unit economics. Anytime Fitness actually in the fitness industry is, you know, it's surprisingly. I thought of it as like an old big box gym, but they've actually done a good job evolving and I've seen one franchise owner especially doing a really good job with the ETA playbook within that system, even if you're in the South. I know I said that I'm against food, but Zaxby's has some really good union economics. I kind of got tipped off to that by speaking to the owner actually of the top store. And they have like 900 locations across the country, primarily in the south of the United States. So, you know, depending on where you are.

[1:00:39] Host: I've never even heard Of Zaxby's.

Guest: Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, See, there you go.

Host: But it's established. It's just regional.

Guest: It's more regional. Exactly. Yeah.

Host: Okay.

Guest: And obviously, like chicken is ultra competitive right now. I mean, there's new Nashville slash hot fried chicken concepts popping up every day. So you got to be a little careful there. But also Mako, again, in the automotive industry, another big brand with just good economics. And these are the types of businesses again, where at scale, at multi unit operations, you can generate some very good cash flow.

Host: That reminds me, there's an important question I wanted to ask you, Wolf, but we're going back into the weeds a little bit. One of the things that I have heard from my guests who did eventually open their minds to buying a franchise was that looking at like an individual unit or two, there just wasn't enough meat on the bone. Like, one location might only be cash flowing. $100,000, let's say. And many acquisition entrepreneurs, searchers, if they're the kind of ideal sweet spot. Now, this can't always be achieved, but it's like 600 to 8 or $900,000 in SDE. That's another conversation. But that's kind of the range that you hear thrown around a lot. So $100,000 of SDE is, you know, red flags all over the place. You're buying yourself a job, you're buying yourself a job that doesn't even pay that much. And so, but as I talk to you and I kind of learn about this world, I'm feeling like maybe that's not uncommon. And so that just goes to show why these players own so many locations. Because to even earn a healthy salary as the owner, you need to own multiple locations. So, you know, respond to that. Does $100,000 per location seem low to you or is that kind of like. No, that sounds about right. That's why you got to own five. That's why you got to own 10.

Guest: Yeah, that sounds very reasonable. I mean, it definitely varies on the brand. Like, especially the ones I was throwing around. Like, I know Zaxby's, they have like 900 locations open. And I think they're. They were showing like over 4,400k in average income based on around 700 locations, which is crazy high for food brand. But they, again, it's regional. So like, there's so many dynamics at play with that one especially. But they do like two and a half million in gross revenue. But yeah, I mean, look, generally you hit the nail on the head that that is why they all own multiple locations. Because again, like I said, I think I said it early on to own, to really be earning high six figures or into seven figures figures, you're just going to need a good number of locations. And it does depend on the brand. Right. Like you know, five locations might be enough for one brand, but another you might need 10 or 15. But it can be done. I mean I've seen, you know, you know, there's a guy who owns 20 math nasiums, if you know them. It's like a math.

[1:03:37] Host: Sure, yeah, yeah. James Temple, he was on the POD a few weeks ago actually.

Guest: Oh, no way. Yeah, that. Yeah, I worked with him in my past life. Okay. Yeah. Oh really?

Host: Yeah, James was great. I mean his story is one of the ones that really piqued my interest about the ETA model and franchising.

Guest: Yeah, yeah, he's great. He's a legend in the mathnasium system.

Host: Yeah, I bet.

Guest: Yeah. But you know, and that's a 100 to $150,000 investment to start one. And you know, he owns the top performing store. At least he did the last time I talked to him. And I think it was doing over a million or something crazy. Which is for that concept specifically. That's insane. But you know, your standard magnesium is not cash flowing that much. I don't know, maybe it's like 80 grand EBITDA. This is pure speculation folks, but I just don't think it's like the average location in America isn't really providing much ebitda. So yeah, like that's why you need, you know, for James, he's got up to 20 and he's looking at other brands at this point. So yeah, it's a rinse and repeat game.

Host: Well, and so I just want to really highlight this point for people because when you hear so and so owns 10 locations, 15 locations, that sounds like quite an empire. But if they're each only earning 80 to $100,000 per year, that's $1 million in EBITDA, which is great. I mean that's a huge amount of money for an individual. But it might not be quite as much as you think if they have, you know, 10 or 15 locations. So and also to the other thing I just wanted to reinforce here is that if a location is doing $100,000, yes, by itself that business isn't appealing. But if you go in with a roll up strategy, then maybe you justify it to yourself, like, well, I'm just going to get my, you know, get my toehold here. With the idea that I'm going to own five or 10. Now, there's all these risks associated with that that we've already talked about, but maybe, maybe these, maybe these locations shouldn't be judged as individual standalone businesses. They should be judged more of the potential of owning multiple units. And that's really, that's really the story that you're wanting to build for yourself around getting into a franchise.

Guest: Yes. That's like one of my, you know, inevitable truths of the franchise world is you can't make a ton of money unless you own multiple locations. Yeah, I definitely don't want to say like, like 100 grand is just reasonable, but you know, like, just to kind of caveat with the brands I mentioned, like, Mako is around 250k per, per location from what they shared in the FTD. So it can be higher. Like, I don't want people thinking like, oh, you can. Like every brand's only making 100k per location. It is brand dependent. Again, some, some. Look, some brands are doing north of half a million in, in ebitda. They're probably not, they're. They're probably pretty pricey brands, you know, to build out. But regardless, there's variability, you know, so just take each brand on its own.

[1:06:33] Host: Great. And Wolf, just any brands that you're not a fan of. I had mentioned Subway offhandedly in our pre call and you said run the other way from Subway. Any other ones that have a bad

Guest: reputation for people who know, honestly, Subway's really the one that I'm like, just, they just have to. And I feel bad because there are good franchisees in that system, so I'm not trying to knock them at all. But from a franchisor standpoint, they've done a lot of shady things in their history and you know, they just need. They should be held accountable. And I don't think they are. You know, people just see commercials with Tom Brady and all these celebrities and the reality is is they've screwed over a lot of people taking advantage of immigrants who couldn't necessarily even. I mean this literally, who couldn't even fully read the. Didn't pass basic English proficiency and yet they were signing franchise agreements. So just a lot of shady practices. And they just didn't have any regard for the health and wellness and success of franchisees. They just sold locations everywhere to boost their own royalty stream, even if it meant people lost their shirts in their business and locations cannibalized each other. So yeah, I just. You can make a lot of money and not be unethical and Subway just didn't do that. So. Yeah, I don't like that franchise. That's really the only one I'd say though.

Host: Okay. Anything that we didn't get to Wolf or about franchising from an ETA perspective or are we good?

Guest: I think we're good. Yeah. Look, look, just go to the Wisconsin site, start familiarizing yourself with FTD's. Yeah, I'm happy to be a resource for anyone out there who has more questions.

Host: And other than your Twitter handle, is there any other place you direct people or is that really the best place?

Guest: That. Or I'd say wolfofranchises.com there you can find everything from my podcast to my other social accounts to my newsletter if you want to subscribe. It's twice a week, but yeah, wolfafranchises.com is kind of the home for for all my work.

Host: Great. Well, it's great work. Thank you very much for taking the time to help educate the Acquiring Minds audience, Wolf and we will see you on Twitter. Thank you, sir.

Guest: Awesome. Thanks. Will appreciate it.